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Old 02-24-2005, 09:39 PM   #76
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Re: Re: Earliest Muscle car

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Originally Posted by Twitch1
Look, nobody used the term "muscle car" in 1955! So we can't call the 300 the first muscle car if no one had yet coined the phrase. ]
Cave men prolly had hemmorhoids 1 million years ago too......but since the term hadn't been invented yet, does that mean the first hemmorhoid didn't really occur until some doctor figured it out and invented the word?

Sorry for the wierd comparison, but it's the same thing........
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Old 02-25-2005, 12:22 AM   #77
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Re: Re: Earliest Muscle car

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Look, nobody used the term "muscle car" in 1955! So we can't call the 300 the first muscle car if no one had yet coined the phrase.
Ever hear of a quadracycle? A charablanc? Or the autovelocipede? These and many more names were once used to describe automobiles .. or what we now classify as 'cars' .. before the word 'car' was even thought of

Just because no one had yet coined what are the now-popular terms we use today doesn't mean those types of vehicles somehow didn't exist back then, or are of a differert genré

Although Karl Benz's first vehicle was not called by that name for many decades, it is now generally referred to as the World's first-ever car
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Old 02-25-2005, 06:07 AM   #78
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Re: Earliest Muscle car

u can call all the cars pre-1964 "performance cars" or whatever u like. The GTO was the first muscle car. All these engines you have listed

1951 Cadillac 331 V8 - 160hp, 312 ft/lbs
1951 Chrysler 331 V8 - 180hp, 312 ft/lbs
1951 Lincoln 337 V8 - 154hp, 275 ft/lbs (flathead)
1950/1951 Olds 304 V8 - 135hp, 263 ft/lbs

make no sense to help out what your trying to explain. these arent muscle cars, there bigger vehicles with less powerful engines. and the other engines u listed, yeah they have some pretty good HP and TQ but how big were the cars they were in?
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Old 02-25-2005, 10:42 AM   #79
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Re: Earliest Muscle car

Dude, I get it now. Any car with a big engine qualifies. Then the 1900 Phoenix-Daimler with 35 HP was the first muscle car at a time when most other cars had 8-10 HP and a really hot car had only 16 HP!
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Old 02-25-2005, 11:29 AM   #80
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Re: Earliest Muscle car

Performance is the key word....the 55 chrysler had way more hp than any other car that year......alot of cars in 64 had 300 plus hp...including the fabled gto.....so where's the muscle in that cloned tempest that made it so special to a few bandwagoneer's ??
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Old 02-27-2005, 06:18 PM   #81
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Re: Earliest Muscle car

the gto will always be called the first muscle car. theres nuthing you can do really excpet move on with your life, its ok.
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Old 02-28-2005, 01:57 PM   #82
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Re: Re: Earliest Muscle car

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the gto will always be called the first muscle car. theres nuthing you can do really excpet move on with your life, its ok.

Never! I'll fight till the end on this one!

Don't forget the most important thing here.......the item common to every car that is considered to be a "musclecar" is the PERFORMANCE PACKAGE......usually including much more than just a bigger motor. The Chrysler 300 had that package, including special trim and performance goodies. GTO started as an option in '64, and became a specific model in later years. read here: "GTO OPTION"......as in PERFORMANCE OPTION.........the '64 Tempest was not the only car ever made before 1964 that had an optional performance package. There were many others.

We can argue about this from now until doomsday.....you say the GTO was the first, many of us say no. I am one of the ones who say no.......and if I knew more about the pre-'60 cars, I'd be presenting a much better arguement.

Check out this link about a fuel injected '58 De Soto......then tell me it doesn't have a performance package:

http://chrysler300club.com/jhstuff/fuelie/fuelie.html
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Old 02-28-2005, 11:38 PM   #83
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+ 1956 dodge d-500, 1957 dodge d-501 392-hemi etc

1935 chevrolet suburban is now widely considered to be suv .. yet built forty years or more before the motoring world thought of or recognised the term suv

why does the same logic somehow not apply for muscle car terminology

i think it does
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Old 03-01-2005, 11:48 AM   #84
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Re: Earliest Muscle car

Same logic does/should apply except for a couple cement heads
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Old 03-01-2005, 04:13 PM   #85
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Re: Earliest Muscle car

Long before the 300 or the GTO the 1900 Phoenix-Daimler with 35 HP was the first muscle car at a time when most other cars had 8-10 HP and a really hot car had only 16 HP! That's double the HP! Add zeros to those and imagine 160 HP vs 350 HP. Yeah 1st muscle car.

BTW there was another term that began in the late 60s that aptly fits ALL high performance cars- "supercars"
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Old 03-01-2005, 04:24 PM   #86
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Re: Earliest Muscle car

Long before the 300 or GTO the 1900 Phoenix-Daimler with 35 HP was the first muscle car at a time when most other cars had 8-10 HP and a really hot car had only 16 HP! Add zeros to the figures and you'll see it better. 80-100 HP, 160 HP and 350 HP. Is 35 more that 10 or 16? The Phoenix-Daimler is an actual hi-performance car of 1900 and is legitimate. It had a 24 HP engine or "performance package" 35 HP engine. There were many cars in the 1930s that qualify as muscle cars under you guys' rules too.
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Old 03-03-2005, 07:00 AM   #87
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Re: Earliest Muscle car

That's fine....as You can see.....the GTO issue is up for discussion and submission of earlier "muscle cars".....I have no problem with that....it's just that anything before 1955 didn't have that BIG of difference from the competition. The hp in the chrysler, blew the competition away. Maybe inspired chevies fuelie in 57...and other tri power setups. My basic position is/was...GTO was NOT the first and that's My opinion supported by facts.
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Old 03-03-2005, 08:00 PM   #88
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Re: Earliest Muscle car

who cares we got our facts to, live with it man but i do give you credit on keeping up with this.
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Old 03-03-2005, 09:48 PM   #89
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Re: Earliest Muscle car

You do mention another car that was never discussed and that is the 57 Chevy fuelie. Although it had less horsepower than the mighty 300, it would cover the quarter mile alot quicker than the 300. I guess you could call it a muscular type vehicle. I don't know if anyone thinks it's a musclecar, nor do I care... I was never around then, so I can't speak about it. My Grandfather purchased a 57 copper and white Bel Air fuelie brand new in 57 only to be stolen two weeks later and never recovered. I saw it on one of my father's old 8mm home movies my grandfather made, and it was a beautiful car, I can understand why it was stolen. My dad grew up in the 50's and said that a guy in high school bought an all black 210 complete with hubcaps and fuelie. He said that car was almost as fast as the chain driven super-charged 50 Plymouth custom that was the fastest car at his high-school. I would love to have one of these stripped down models with the fuelie. He said the guy removed the evidential fuelie badges creating a sleeper. Who would of thought, a sleeper in 57! Good stuff.
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Old 03-04-2005, 04:03 PM   #90
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Re: Earliest Muscle car

Little known fact about 1957 Chevy FI was that in reality it had less HP than the dual carb version. Chevy lied that it produced 283 HP. It was actually about 20 HP less. Just marketing. They got engineers on it and it did develop more HP later though. Hope the guy who stole your Grandpop's car got what's coming to him!

The hemi was around since 1951 in Chrysler products. The 300 was a 1955 FULL size car weighing in at 4,400 lbs! It had nothing in common with intermediate-sized cars at 3,200 lbs of the 60s that we began calling muscle cars in retrospect around 1970.
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