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Old 02-02-2005, 06:34 AM   #31
terzmo
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Re: Earliest Muscle car

Ponch....re-read Swi's post.....interpreted means....by making the NEW charger....mustang sales will increase because of it....He didn't say the charger would out sell it...now I understand your posts and where they come from
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Old 02-02-2005, 08:40 AM   #32
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Re: Earliest Muscle car

Well, let's see. '64 GTO. Intermediate body, "big car" engine. '04 GTO. Intermediate body (smaller than GP, bigger than GA), LS1 (GM's "big" engine). '64 GTO, mid-14 second 1/4 mile, 130 or so, top end. '04 GTO. Mid 13s (I've seen them do it, stock as a rock), computer shuts them off at over 150 MPH. Both cars, 2-door (Sorry, Charger).
Okay, I guess the '04 wins. You're right. Not much similarity there...
Pontiac has submitted to the crybabies wanting more "styling ques" by adding scoops to the '05. Oh, one minute... Yup, another 50 horsepower, too! They threw that in just for us GTO guys...
You guys miss the point. It isn't that GTO is the mind-boggling supercar the mystique has made t. It never was. It was (and is), however, a viable platform for a true high performance car, able to perform in more than one venue. If your '70 SS could beat a GTO in a drag race, it wasn't going to beat it around the corners. If your small block Chevelle could handle as well, it certainly wouldn't have the balls to run in the straight line.
GTOs are not for everyone. This has always been true. The arch-type GTO guy isn't the least bit interested in how others see him (or her) in their car. They're interested in what the dash, the hood, the shifter, the tach and speedo look like AT SPEED.
Those that lament the styling, aren't going to buy GTO anyway, as Mustang offers more to them in the "Hey, look at me!" department.
We all have our preferences and dislikes. I prefer a car that "runs" as much or more than it "looks". I dislike a car that pretends to be something it isn't. I LIKE the modern car (of most descriptions), as they carry us into the future. I like the old cars, as they are pretty and have individual personalities. I'm not crazy about the "cookie cutter" approach to modern cars, but what works, works! I don't like the old cars due to all the work they need, and some of the lack of conveniences modern cars provide. I DO like the tire-shredding torque not seen since the last of the real ones in the late '70s (early '70s for you non-Pontiac people).
It takes all kinds to make a world. I won't rag on you guys for being "bandwagoneers" if you stop raggin' on me for liking something you don't seem to understand.
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Old 02-02-2005, 11:24 AM   #33
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Re: Re: Earliest Muscle car

Quote:
Originally Posted by 65Ponchoboy
swi66 i agree the new GTO sucks, i cant wait till 2006 for the new design. one thing i have to disagree on is the charger seeling out the mustamg. will not happen. The stang has the looks, the handling and not so much of the hp but its still good. Yeah im glad dodge re-made the charger but if they didnt make it some panzee lookin 4dr then maybe it will sell more, but as it stands right now, no way no how.
Re-read my post.........What I meant was, the release of the new charger and it's feeble attempt at capitalizing on the Charger legend will cause the MOPAR faithful to run to their Ford Dealership and plunk down the money to buy a new Mustang.
I am a MOPAR guy, and if I was in the market, I would turn my backs on that new Charger and buy the Mustang. Mustang got it right with the styling. Ma MOPAR teased us for at least 5 years with styling concepts which brought back memories of the Charger of old. What they finally gave us was a corporate compromise..........4-doors! What a SHAME...
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Old 02-02-2005, 02:13 PM   #34
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I don't care how fast it goes.......that 2004 GTO is just plain UGLY as is the Grand Ams and Grand Prixs that it is modeled after. Yuck!

But as we all well know, the GTO is really the only true musclecar.
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Old 02-02-2005, 06:30 PM   #35
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Re: Earliest Muscle car

swi66 man im sry ive just had a lot on my mind lately and just keep readin stuff wrong. "now I understand your posts and where they come from", if thats supposed to be an insult, f off. i woulda made an exception with the 99 concept casue it had aggressive looks and i cant rememeber what they were going to use as a powerplant. oh did anybody see the one PHR "popular hot rodding" came up with?
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Old 02-03-2005, 12:41 PM   #36
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Re: Earliest Muscle car

While Mustang got the styling right, they too, are simply trying to capitalize on past glory with the "retro" look. I like old cars, and I like modern cars. I don't care much for modern cars trying to look like old ones. You end up with pure garbage, not unlike PT Cruiser (a Neon in drag).
No, GTO is NOT the only muscle car. Man, you guys sure are sensitive. You can read things into a conversation even my X-wife would be envious of! GTO is not the ONLY one, and not even the fastest one (back in "the day"), merely the first and most prolific.
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Old 02-04-2005, 06:29 PM   #37
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Re: Earliest Muscle car

PONCH-BOY I initiated the "now I know where you are coming from post" not Swii....and the F-off is bravely.....written...lol....Your Godly pontiacs with the low rpm/high torque way over 3400 pound boats were not even a match for a chevy II/ chevelle with a 327.....and of course the mopars with the max wedge and later 440's definetely embarrased the so called...self exclaimed first..so called muscle car...there might be a bunch of no nothing author's proclaiming the gto as the first muscle car...but it can NEVER be solidified because thre was too many high performance cars built way before 1964 and they FAIL to recognise that. AGAIN...what's the difference between a lemans with a 326..2 bbl/gto389..4 barrel...and an ss with a 409 or a sport fury with a 426 max wedge...or a 64 coronet 426 wedge....as I recall....I'll take the wedge car and kick the shit out of a 64 GTO with a 389...now check the specs and times on that
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Old 02-05-2005, 10:35 AM   #38
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Re: Earliest Muscle car

yes i no you did. i was aplogizing to swi66 for misreading his post..hmm now who reads them wrong ?... no kidding a 426 max wedge would whip a gto, i think everybody here knows that. Also do you have some evidence that a 327 chevelle would beat a 389 GTO?
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Old 02-05-2005, 11:15 AM   #39
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Re: Earliest Muscle car

My '70 Judge got beat by a 327 Malibu once! ONCE... It had the old Edelbrock T-1 intake (Tunnel Ram for the younger set), with 2 Holleys sticking through the hood. It also had a Racer Brown (from the "Way Back Machine") roller, 12.5:1, close ratio Muncie, 5.13 gears, and M&H Street Masters. If it hadn't absolutely SMOKED a relatively stock GTO, I think I would be looking for the man that sold me the motor!
But no relatively stock 327 Chevelle OR Camaro ever beat my GTO. Vern Shafer's "Mouse Factory" ('63 Chevy II) got me good one night! Another extensively modified 327.
In general, it took a 375 horse 396 to run with The Judge (mine, anyway). A 350 horse Chevelle SS wouldn't do it, at least in stock form. I never lost to a 383 Dodge, either, even a couple of 'Cudas. 440 Magnums were hell, though. Never saw a Hemi car that could get traction with street tires, so they stayed out of the light-to-light stuff. Southern California in the early '70s was a WILD place to street race. I got more "runs" on a Friday nght, than I did in a year of visiting Orange County Raceway...
Jim Wangers is hardly a "know nothing writer". He's the guy that brought us the Studebaker Hawk series, the GTO and TransAm. He was a marketing guy, who's agency was hired by Pontiac to promote their entire car line. When he met up with John Z. (not a writer of any kind, but one of the greatest automotive engineers in the history of the industry), they developed the car (GTO) on the "sly" between them. Read the book...
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Old 02-06-2005, 12:39 AM   #40
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04 GTO fastest American car, not! You guys forgot the newest Cobra, and what about that Cadillac CTS-V? I think they were both faster. I actually like the new GTO though, I think it is a nice car, and will get better now with the LS-2 motor.
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Old 02-06-2005, 04:16 PM   #41
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I've heard talk that Buick has on the drawing board a little competition for these guys. This is here say, and I don't even have any sketchy details, but I heard something along the lines of the comeback of a supercharged Grand National. Since they eliminated the Riviera model it's no surprise car sales are down. Nothing would excite me more than if they bring the Riviera back as a Riviera Grand National and made it a killer. Would prolly be the same chassis as the GTO I'd think. But why get excited.......it'll prolly just look like a LeSabre anyway. Given the stupid concepts and crap ugly cars GM has been making for the past 15 years I'm not holding my breath on this one........I'm afraid Buick will die along with Olds if they don't stop calling their cars bad names like LaCrosse and Rainier.
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Old 02-06-2005, 05:55 PM   #42
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Re: Earliest Muscle car

yeah that would be pretty nice if they came back with a GN, but the thing im wondering is if they will just slap a turbo on a 3800 and dump it in since they put the 3800 in just about every buick car. i mean its a good engine and all but its time for a change.
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Old 02-06-2005, 06:36 PM   #43
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Re: Earliest Muscle car

GM really needs to bring back the turbo. I think they were definately on to something with the GN Turbo Ta, and Syclone/Typhoon. Make no mistake about it turbo cars can run hard and without sacrificing much drivability
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Old 02-07-2005, 11:15 AM   #44
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It is rumored that if this idea becomes reality, they will supercharge the ls6.

I don't know anything about the reliability of the 3800, but aren't those the ones that GM is using in all their current cars? I hear the rod bearings knock in a lot of those when people start their motors in parking lots.......they can't be too good. And given GM's new product track record lately, I'm not holding my breath on this Grand National thing........and I cringe at the thought of what this thing might look like. It's time for GM to make a retro car like Ford has done with the Mustang.......at least when you look at it it has some resemblance to a real one (punn intended )
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Old 02-07-2005, 11:39 AM   #45
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Re: Earliest Muscle car

The 3.8 is usually a good choice for a gm motor..as with all...some good..alot bad but I would not hesitate to getting a 3.8.........I have a 3.1 in My Wife's malibu and it is ok but poor on mileage for a small 6
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