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Old 10-15-2004, 10:40 PM   #76
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Ok, I went off the deepend on my last post. But then you start attacking everyone in it so lets sum it up...

You're saying water VAPORS are reactive? Then next time you decided to boil water over the stove, why doesn't it burst into flames?

Water in, GAS, LIQUID, SOLID, IS STILL H20, IT DOES NOT CHANGE ITS CHEMICAL PROPERTIES.

H20 Has next to NO potential energy, the only energy you will get out of H20 is from the energy you put INTO it. H20 Does NOT readily bond with free floating atoms, its already filled its valence shell. You're talking about getting enormous amounts of energy out of H20 without even putting any in.

http://employees.csbsju.edu/hjakubow...mainmenu01.htm
READ THIS,

Seriously, just because you mix them together doesn't mean shit magically happens.

This is seriously becoming retarded.
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Old 10-15-2004, 11:08 PM   #77
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Re: Gas mileage question.

Oh, so all the energy you put into the water to evaporate it magically disapears? And, when all this energy is added, the stability isn't lost? If I remember correctly, water requires a large amount of heat to get to its gaseous state. What will a chem 123 afford me that a chem 136 won't?
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Old 10-16-2004, 12:09 AM   #78
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True alot of heat energy is required to change water from a liquid state to a vapor state...what we are talking about is the energy require to break the atomic bonds through heat...unfortionatly internal combustion engines can't provide sufficient energy to do this therefore the water vapor H20 remains in it current inert state through the combustion process.

Heat energy is never lost just transfered to something else....so when you boil water into a vapor these smaller water molecules then transfer their heat energy to the surronding air molecules.

hum i don't think atomic stuff fits in here that far from the chemical reactions we're dealing with. best to stay at the moleculare level i guess.

well i think its best to talk about current engine technology instead of experemental engine technology. but for me it seem like your not describing clearly enough how this process occurs.

As i know it Air and atomized/vaporized mixture fill the combustion chamber during the intake stroke...next the compression stroke compress the air fuel charge during this compression internal cumbustion chaber temperatures rise although not to the point of autoignition...then a spark is delivered to the compressed air/fuel mixture to start a chemical break down and reconstitution of the chemical elements of the gasoline and air (CO2). This chemical chain reaction continues because of the heat energy created to the breaking of the gasoline molecules and CO2 to create left over non combustable exhause untill either the air or gasoline molecules are gone or heat energy to low to continue the process. Heat energy causes the molecules to move away from each other...basic thermal expansion stuff.

After that the process repeats its self.

if there we're any other combustable gases formed during this process then they would be burned as well during the combustion process.
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Old 10-16-2004, 12:32 AM   #79
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Re: Gas mileage question.

Buick, what school do you go to?

Evil, thankyou. You pretty much summed it up for me.

NO the stability ISN'T lost. The energy required to break the Ionic bonds between the hydrogens and the oxygen is far passed the energy level required to bring the water to boiling. The energy required to break those bonds is ENORMOUS. You say you're in chem 136 yet you don't even understand extremely simple, 7th grade earth science material. Chem 136 my ass, no-one allowed into college can possibly be as dumb as you. You're ignorant, you proclaim that your chem 136 knowledge is far superior to people who have 2 degrees in chemistry. You argue that you're that intelligent but you don't even have the common sense to explain where the energy in the form of heat goes when water evaporates into the air. I vote you get a kick in the skull.

I'm trying to break off with the chemistry, obviously he isn't understanding it.. Lets try physics

I've posted previously about my father, but let me elaborate on this. Look along if you want (www.jlab.org) JLAB is an electron beam generator facilty. To split a bond on an atom, it takes them 20Megawatts to get an electron fast enough to break the strike the atom and break the bond. 20 Megawatts of power. Lets see here

Mega=10^6=10x10x10x10x10x10=1,000,000
20megawatts =20,000,000 watts

1 Joule= 1 Watt/1 Second

It takes them 24 Millionths of a second to get the electron to that speed, this would mean. 0.000024th of a second.

Given the listed equations, that would mean:

20,000,000Watts/0.000024seconds= 8,333,333,333,333 Joules

1 Gallon of gasoline = 1.3X10^8 joules of energy=130,000,000 joules
http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/t/...8/gasoline.htm

8,333,333,333,333/130,000,000=64,102 Gallons of gasoline to get enough energy to break the ionic bonds between a couple of ionic bonds on H20. Thats fuel efficiency.

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Old 10-16-2004, 12:45 AM   #80
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I'm not trying to be rude, but how do you explane the one I saw running? Luck? Chance? I noticed that most of you all have pretty much avoided that. The only reason I don't talk about what we are currently doing is because this change to a factual motor that is supercarburated is much more efficient, and produces a fraction of the toxins, if any, that are produced in gasoline engines, and produce less heat.
Why do evaporated water and evaporated gasoline bond without adding huge amounts of heat? It must not be needed, because the bonds in methanol must be stronger than the ones in gasoline or oxygen, and it readily forms methanol. The system I saw wouldn't work unless that were the case. Maybe there was even some sort of a catylist that I didn't notice. That is the greatest insight I have to offer as to why they bond, but I know that they do, b/c I have seen it. If you cannot trust what you see, how can you be sure that polished gold is shiny? That E=MC^2? That the monitor you are staring at is actually there? That what you type on the keyboard actually appears on the monitor? That a person is standing in front of you? That a devise that is broken in half actually is? Do you see my point? I can't force you to believe that something is, and I am not trying to. I am simply stating the facts, and backing them up. I find it impossible to disprove a fact, no matter how hard you try.
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Old 10-16-2004, 01:04 AM   #81
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Re: Gas mileage question.

I am currently a sophomore 1 at Kettering University, formerly GMI (General Motors Institution), and am studying for an advanced degree in applied physics and mechanical engineering. I am currently holding a 3.69 GPA, or as it is known here, a 94% wheighted average grade. I have experience in repairing mid 80's-early 90's full size Buicks, and have been nicknamed by my classmates as "The Mechanic of KU," as I have a perfect record on my slate of completely repairing the problems I have encountered.
I hold a co-operative education in the field of Mechanical Engineering at Weldun Int., and have helped in the process of building the prototype assembly line for one of the clutch packs in the soon to be released 6-speed automatic, a joint effort by the two remaining American car manufacturer powers, GM and Ford.
Want statistics about the school? Look online, as I don't have exact numbers handy, but I am fairly certain that the Mechanical Engineering program is rated #8 in the United States.

www.kettering.edu
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Old 10-16-2004, 01:06 AM   #82
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Re: Re: Gas mileage question.

Buick, i think you should review some of your earlier posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by buickmastermind
Tell me, what device under the hood of a car, or anywhere in the car for that matter, changes heat energy into mechanical energy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by buickmastermind
Heat from the spark plug is used to create mechanical energy.

i still haven't seen any hard proof other then buick's hear-say. and as much as i hate to say this i think i know what he is talking about(the high economy engine) but his preception of how it works is completely off. at least in this universe it is.

if you use electrolysis to seperate the hydrogen and oxygen atoms in water, you can run and engine completely fueled by water. it was done in 1969. but without electrolysis, it is impossible. buick is this what you are talking about?

http://www.wizardsfolly.org/~jane/carrunsonwater.html
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Old 10-16-2004, 01:31 AM   #83
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Re: Gas mileage question.

That article suggests that car can do over 124mph
not doubting that, but this is what gets me..

"do not make use of ICEs but fuel cell engines, nor do they run on ordinary water but on liquid hydrogen"

Note how he doesn't say how he gets a 12 volt battery to do this, (the article even mentions this)
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Old 10-16-2004, 06:42 AM   #84
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Re: Gas mileage question.

Nothing against engineers, but this is what troubles me....paper and pencil don't mean a thing outside the office. Build it! I'd like to borrow the car so I can drive to work for $2 a month!!
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Old 10-16-2004, 08:57 AM   #85
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Re: Re: Gas mileage question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buickmastermind
I didn't want the tone to become negative, but when you tell me that something that I have seen, studied, and know works can't be done, I get frustrated.

This is a very simple process that you have trying to disprove using complex models of a totally different system! You are trying to tell me that changing gasoline to methane and methanol isn't possible by telling me how current combustion engines work! What intelligence. I commend you.
What part about the water VAPOR reacting with gas VAPOR don't you understand? It is very, very simple. So simple, in fact, that you simply have to finely mist the fuel and water into the air filter, and only vapors can get past. Just because the the liquid or solid form of something is non-reactant, doesn't mean that the gaseous form isn't! The gaseuos form of an element has way more energy in it b/c it requires energy from somewhere to turn into a gas. It sounds like you seem to think that the amount of energy in a element has nothing to do with its reactivity or solubility! If our resident chemist doesn't agree with this next sentance, then he either never took a chemistry lab, or he really doesn't know much at all about chemistrys practical application to real life and there is a reason he is a mechanic and not a government employed chemist.

"The solubility of a material depends upon temperature."

For example: Ice doesn't react KNO3. But, it can be disolved in liquid water according to it's solubilty. The hotter the water is, the more KNO3 you can dissovle in it. Just because one physical state of an object doesn't react with another object doesn't mean that changing their states can change this. This property holds true for chemically combining water vapors and gasoline vapors. It is a proven scientific fact that this sytem works, and is hounded by people who can make money off the old system. At $2.00 per gallon of gasoline and an average of 25 mpg, that is a shitload of money, especially if you put 70,000 miles per year on your car.

Also, you don't lose energy or power by this change. Why? B/c of the laws of conservation of energy. What goes in, must come out, no matter what the form. Just because liquid water doesn't react, doesn't mean it doesn't have energy. If it had no energy, it would be frozen @ 0 degrees kelvin.

* Just a note here. You contridicted yourself when you said water doesn't burn, and you also said that anything burns if you get it hot enough!
I am not saying that water vapors ignite! I am saying the react with gas vapors!

And, there is a differance between burning/cumbustion and exploding. An explosion is almost instantly completed, an only occurs for a few seconds. Burning is takes longer and is a more drawn out process.

If you can't understand that, then you don't deserve to be allowed to post arguments about it.
how many people with multiple college degress have to tell you your wrong untill you understand that YOU ARE WRONG.

Gasoline will not disolve in water, end of story, have a nice day, buh-bye. KNO3wont disolve in ice because ICE IS A SOLID. Ohh look momey this sauder dady was saudering with doesnt burn me while its solid but look, momey i got blisters all over my hands from trying to pick it up while it was a liquid....

70,000miles per year? what are you a poor executive that has to drive instead of fly across country? my god thats 7 years worth of average driving in one year.

you seem to be getting confued. i said anything will burn if you get it hot enough, i also said that in order for you to actually burn H2O you would have to heat it to a point that it would split its self into H and O2 and then become water agian. since when your burn hydrogen you are oxydizing it...wow that makes H2O. but the tempatures required for water to do this are massive. nitrogen and oxygen turn to plasma before water splits into hydrogen and oxygen.

Water is by far the least reactive overly abundant substance on earth. next to the 6 noble gases it is so stable because it has a noble gas configuration. it is a great solute but most ionic compounds wont dissolve in water. and lookey there gasoline is an ionic compound (though it is a gas at room tempature, and most ionic compunds are soilds)

when i burn a 8.5x11 piece of paper it takes 15-20 seconds to burn. if i throw it into a fernes at 1000C its almost instantly becomes ash. if i take 10g of gasoline while it is still a liquid and put a mach to it ir burns, fast but doesnt explode (DO NOT TRY THIS CHILLENS). if i put 10g of gasoline and let it vaporize in 150g of air (or ~50g of oxygen) then put a match to it it burns, extremely fast. the total BTU coutn is hte same. the number of joules is the same. its juse the liquid had to mix its self with air and the gaseous was alrady vaporized and in its most reactive form. it is still burning. a bottle of pressurized air can explode with out burning yes, but it doesnt explode because of thermal energy causeing an instant pressure build up. and besides, as we have already said it isnt an "explosion" its called the "combustion" stroke. meaning it combusts.
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Old 10-16-2004, 09:18 AM   #86
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Re: Gas mileage question.

Where going from chemistry and thermal dynamics to the theory of relativity? do you even know what E=MC^2 suggest?
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Old 10-16-2004, 03:59 PM   #87
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Re: Gas mileage question.

OH! OH! OH!...i know i know. That Energy is equal to the mass of an object multiplied by the speed of light to the power of 2 (squared). Mass can be changed into energy and energy can be changed to mass but you can not destroy either. there is always the same ammount of energy and mass in the universe. matter can not be created nor destroyed, law: Concervation of matter/energy.
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Old 10-16-2004, 10:33 PM   #88
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Re: Gas mileage question.

"Buick, i think you should review some of your earlier posts

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by buickmastermind
Tell me, what device under the hood of a car, or anywhere in the car for that matter, changes heat energy into mechanical energy?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by buickmastermind
Heat from the spark plug is used to create mechanical energy. "

It is really easy to find "contradictions" when you take things that people say out of context. Even you should know that.

Perhaps for such "extermely" educated people, you don't show it. The amount of bad spelling and bad grammar suggests that you are all no older than 12.

"70,000miles per year? what are you a poor executive that has to drive instead of fly across country? my god thats 7 years worth of average driving in one year. "
You must not be allowed to read much... Me? An executive? Not yet. If you would read my posts, you wouldn't have said that. The average American drives 10,000 miles per year, and I put 70,000 miles on my car last year. Wow, that makes me above average!

Anyway, this is what I have always been talking about!
http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfiel.../supcarb2.html
www.himacresearch.com/books/secret2.html
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Old 10-17-2004, 01:40 AM   #89
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Ok i see what you where your trying to get at.... and seems logical. Its basicly making a small oil refinery under the hood of your car that takes the gasoline and through the use of exhaust heat vaporizes the gasoline and water which is then fed into a catalyst which would also be heats by the exhaust headers. These vapors are then treated by catalyst to break down the gasoline into gases like n-butane or other room temperature gases....these gas then go through the intake manafold with air into the combustion chamber for rapid oxidation.

http://www.osha-slc.gov/dts/osta/otm.../otm_iv_2.html

This describes the processes required. It talks about steam cracking to break down long hydrocarbon chains like gasoline in to gas but the pressure and temperature are to high so the use of a catalyst is required i suppose the water vapor helps.

The only problem i see with this is the catalytic cracking rate, the life expectency, size and cost of the catalyst device.

But Buick the engine still won't be 100% efficient...because nothing in this world operates at 100%....even though energy can't be distroyed it get transfered else where.

The Internal combustion engine is a heat engine it needs heat to create pressure to force the pistion down and that act turns our heat energy into mechanical energy.

In the beginning you gave us very little or nothing to go on that would suggest that the engine might have been using catalyst cracking. Why didn't you tell us ahead of time ro could you untill you found that link which suggested the use of catalization of gasoline vapor into natural gases?
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Old 10-17-2004, 08:33 AM   #90
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Re: Gas mileage question.

Im done with this post, he argues with us for days on a false backround and then turns around and igve us proof that, if he had given us in the begining, would have kept us all from wasteing our time....
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