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Old 06-13-2004, 04:20 PM   #1
9eleventb0
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The End Of Sports Cars????

recently i've heard that hydrogen fuel cells or some form of electric motor must eventually replace the gasoline engine in the next 20-25 years since gasoline occurs in a limited supply. interestingly, the few cars that already have these technologies have been shown to produce practically no engine noise. though this may be ok for economy cars, having no more distinctive engine noise may ruin a huge part of the sports car experience. imagine never hearing the racecar-like wail of a ferrari v8 or the monstrous growl of a lambo v12; it would be like taking away a part of the very soul of sports cars!!! has anybody else considered this possibility????
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Old 06-13-2004, 11:44 PM   #2
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Re: The End Of Sports Cars????

I've never heard the sound of a real ferrari or a lambo...

Back then, a sports car was a 2 seater, 2 door convertable, with only necessities and no cd player, and all this crap...

Now we call something as luxurious as an M3, a sports car, or a turbo'd civic coupe a sports car...

The word "sports car" pretty much has no meaning anymore... Sports wagon, Sports SUV, Sports sedan, Sports coupe... It's all a marketing scam...

Back then, cars sounded like shit, I'm sure later we all will appreciate the noise of electric motors when they REALLY improve. I just hate going through another god damn era...
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Old 06-13-2004, 11:49 PM   #3
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We folks in the open wheel racing community, you know - backwoods guys from towns like Rossburg, Ohio and Williams Grove, Pennsylvania, have had the answer to fuel for performance cars since the 60's.

We race on methanol.
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Old 06-14-2004, 01:54 PM   #4
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i know that most people all these civics and hatchbacks as being sporty cars but there are still many people that enjoy "real" sports cars. i mean even relatively cheaper sports cars like the z4 or s2000 are fun partially because of the sounds their engines produce (though i would in no way compare these cars to porsches, ferraris, etc). anyways i'm not debating what the definition of a sports car is but all i'm saying is that many cars that people enjoy today are so good partly because of their wonderful sound (and yes i have heard them in real life so i know how good they sound). i'm just afraid that soon enough those musical engine will die away.

and also regarding methanol, though it is an alternative fuel source, hydrogen still makes more sense in the long run because its emissions are only pure water, and zero emission is what auto manufacturers desire in the end. but hydrogen of course would have to be either cooled dramatically to liquid state or compressed highly as gas for use in automobiles and so methanol would be easier based on existing infrastructure.
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Old 06-14-2004, 02:30 PM   #5
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Re: The End Of Sports Cars????

let everyone go to hydrogen...
more gasoline then for me
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Old 08-21-2004, 01:49 AM   #6
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Re: The End Of Sports Cars????

I saw this thing on tv a month ago.. it was a fuel cell car against a viper srt-10 and the fuel cell car beat it
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Old 08-21-2004, 06:42 PM   #7
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thats all bullshit. the internal combustion engine will never be replaced there is no markt for soless sportscars. How much did that fuel cell car cost? Not a very fair comparison, maybe a McLaren F1. The real problems of the future are not alternative fuel sources but the lack of resourses to make products. All the tech in the world wont make up for lack of resources. The build up of of tech that we have acivied today and in the future will be rendered useless.
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Old 08-22-2004, 12:34 AM   #8
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Re: The End Of Sports Cars????

shconer:

There was a time when people doubted that the internal combustion engine would take off. And assuming that it "will never be replaced" lacks imagination and a sense of history. The price of a fuel cell car today is not the point because this technology hasn't had the money invested in it that the internal combustion engine has...and isn't in volume production.

Fuel cells are the current direction of the automotive industry...and are probably the next technology to replace the ICE.
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Old 08-22-2004, 12:39 AM   #9
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Re: The End Of Sports Cars????

I don't mind not having the awsome noises, well yea I do... but can a fuel cell really beat a viper? What kinda of horse power am dtorque are we looking at?
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Old 08-22-2004, 10:08 AM   #10
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It takes more imajnation to forsee the future of cumbuston engines today than a fuel cell will ever. Cumbustion engines have endless possabilites and as far as I can see we have only begun to see what the comustion engine can do, the fuel cell has already reached its technaolgical feat of being a orverglorified battrie the only revalation it has to grow to is its srinking size. Dont get me wrong fuel cells are the future of possiable zero emissions transportaion, but a fuel cell vehical will never evoke the same emotions that a Ferrari will, or a tunners 700hp Supra. Electric motors have an enherite ablitity to produce maxamum torque at very low rpms. While the viper is definatly a fast car its a relativly low performance engine, 500 hp out of a 8.3L is only 60hp per liter. Plus what kind of test comparisin was this, cargo space?
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Old 08-23-2004, 12:27 AM   #11
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Re: The End Of Sports Cars????

Shconer:

It's "combustion."

Nope...the ICE is nearing the end of its efficiency. ICEs are inherently inefficient and dirty.

Fuel cells have MORE potential torque than ICEs. Fuel cells run with electric motors powering the wheels, and they have lots of torque...and at 0 rpm. Fuel cells are a bit over-hyped at the moment, but that will come to pass. You're assuming that fuel cells are "emotionless," but they'll have a huge following after they become production realities when enthusiasts realize the torque and capability of electric motors.

Until the fuel cell becomes production-ready, ICE/electric hybrids offer much more performance potential than stand-alone ICEs.

Horsepower/L doesn't show the performance ability of the car very well...just the performance efficiency of the engine. The Viper on the whole is a top performer and a valid comparison in any performance test. My assumption is that performance wasn't compared on a hp/L rating, since that's apples and oranges to a fuel cell vehicle.
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Old 08-23-2004, 03:48 AM   #12
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Thanks for the correction. I wasn't aware of the that grammer was a big deal here. I belive that your wrong. I belive that the combustion engine is far from its peak effeciency especially in the form of desial. The desial engine is breaking new ground this year, with many new engines coming to the U.S.A. on it's introduction of higher grade desial fuels. This higher standard has been offered in Canada for some time now. Canada will be getting the first new V-10 desials from VW in North America. The new desial is not only more effecient by allowing higher cyclinder pressures and heat tolarances, but is inherently cleaner, both in the form of emissions but also airborn particulate matter, or the terriable soot. Witch adresses both of the problems. Desial engines also create far more torque per size than electric motors do esspessially with a fuel cell configeration, with similar characteristic of low RPM torque. I also belive that as engine managment systems further evolve and make use of there capabilities that this to will play a more important role than it already has.

Technically, no motor creates any power when it's not moving, sorry. If they did we wouldn't be having this conversation. I'm not assuming that fuel cells are emotionless. I'm shure they will have there own group of enthusiasts who equally could care less about performance and more about saving the forest, Movie stars and the like. All I said was that, "There is no market for soless sportscars" and, "A fuel cell vehical will never evoke the same emotions that a Ferrari will". What I meant was that while fuel cells have emotion of there own, it is far different from that of a sports car, further supporting the argument that not only will the, "The internal combustion engine will never be replaced" but esspessially not in a sports car.

Hybirds are not only the biggest automotive let down, but are a complete joke as far as fuel economy goes. The only benifit of a hybrid is it's Super Ultra Low Emissions. Tell me why I should buy a Base Honda Civic Hybrid for $29 510.00 CND that gets 4.9 / 4.6 L/100 KM city/hi-way, when I can buy a VW Jetta TDI for $26 900 CND that gets 4.6/6.2 L/100 KM city/hi-way for $2610 less, and pay less of the fuel to boot, and for what ever it's worth I personaly know that the TDI's rating are under rated. Not only that, but will the hybrid start and run when I wake up and it's under a foot of -30C snow? I also seriously question if a fuel cell will either.

I am aware that "Horsepower/L doesn't show the performance ability of the car very well" thats why I said, "While the viper is definatly a fast car its a relativly low performance engine" I'm also aware of the fruit situation. My point was that if someone is going to compare a super fuel cell vehical, why not use a super combustion engine vehical as it's opponet. Otherwise, seems like a geneticly modified apple and an already sqeezed orange.
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Old 08-23-2004, 09:24 AM   #13
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what if auto manufacturers made most of their family sedans, vans, and cheap compacts fuel cell driven cars and made sportier cars using the combustion engine (though not with gasoline)? if the combustion engine could use natural fuels such as soybean and natural alcohols, the problem of limited gasoline/fossil fuel supply would disappear. in addition, the sports car segment is a relatively small percentage of the whole range of cars and so even if natural fuels create some emissions, overall it would be far less than what is being produced nowadays. and regardless of what anyone says fuel cells/electric motors ARE EMOTIONLESS. i have seen in car footage of electric vehicles and although some of them are fast as hell, the sound is awful......i dunno about you guys, but when i floor my car, i don't want it to sound like the buzz of a computer booting up. the sound not onnly adds to pure auditory pleasure, but it also improves the sensation of power and speed.....when you hear a buzzy 4 cylinder engine, you think high revving and zippy......when you hear a big american v8, you think massive torque and raw, brutish power. all i can pray for is that auto manufacturers (at least the ones that make good sports cars) realize how important the sound of the engine is and do everything in their power to keep it
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Old 08-23-2004, 04:15 PM   #14
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The reason why we like the noise is because it sounds fast, if something like a 50 HP Honda sounded like an F1 car, but a real F1 car sounded like de-tuned rusted out civic, don't tell me that the 50 HP honda is music to your ears, because we all know that it means something, and it means speed.

Think about it, what underpowered POS engine would ACTUALLY sound good? You all like the sound of Ferraris because they have gobs of horsepower.

When people started inventing firearms, we all thought it was "emotionless", but look at us now, we all use it, and now we don't say it has no emotion, some of us even have quotes and names engraved on our pistols.

Just accept the fact that it is inevitable, I think it is nice to have something that doesn't pollute and kill things. The only thing I hate about the electric cars is the amount of computers it will be loaded with.
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Old 08-23-2004, 05:16 PM   #15
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Re: The End Of Sports Cars????

yes, the computers will make the cars hard to work on.
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