Automotive Forums .com - the leading automotive community online! Automotive Forums .com - the leading automotive community online!
Automotive Forums .com - the leading automotive community online! 
-
Latest | 0 Rplys
Go Back   Automotive Forums .com Car Chat > Engineering/Technical
Engineering/Technical Ask technical questions about cars. Do you know how a car engine works?
View Poll Results: Which Engine is the better for Forced Induction??
D15 5 4.39%
B16A 13 11.40%
D17A 0 0%
B18B 45 39.47%
B18C1 27 23.68%
B18C5 12 10.53%
H22A 12 10.53%
Voters: 114. You may not vote on this poll

Reply Show Printable Version Show Printable Version | Email this Page Email this Page | Subscription Subscribe to this Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-14-2004, 09:52 PM   #91
boosted331
AF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 1,132
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: Re: Which Engine for Forced Induction??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delerious93integra
i see, what part of canada are you in... because i'm on the west coast.. and that number sounds like it's from ontario or something... also.. what type of turbo is it (ball bearing.. size.??) and yes... it is a freaking kick in the pants to buy anything in this country
I'm from Alberta/Saskatchewan, but I'm moving to the states this summer. The number is from California, but it's well worth the long distance charges. I'm running a PTE GT35R which I upgraded to from an SC61. It's a ball-bearing turbo, with a .82 A/R exhaust housing I start to see boost at 3300-ish, and I have 18 psi by just under 4500 RPM's. Makes a boat load of power, and has 680 HP potential.
boosted331 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2004, 11:37 PM   #92
Hybrid_Sol
AF Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: New Haven, Connecticut
Posts: 42
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: Re: Which Engine for Forced Induction??

I keep hearing people posting their opinions about why you shouldn't choose a motor - the turbo won't spool, the head flows better, the cylinder walls are too thin...

I would love to see some hard numbers. So far this is all speculation.

The question is: which engine will produce the most power when a turbo is bolted on.

Yes, the B18B has a lower CR and can run a higer boost on stock internals, but will a B18B @ 11lbs have more ponies then a B18C with 9lbs? Keep in mind that the higher compression ratio will help with power. Also, remember that the air is flowing through the VTEC head better.

The same concept holds true for cylinder walls: will the extra displacement from a H22 make up for having to run less boost to protect the cylinder walls?

As for the tranny, you can have any b-series tranny with a b-series motor (correct me if I'm wrong) so I'd choose it seperately. The concept holds true again with trannys. If your turbo spins up because you have longer gears, great...but who cares if you got blown away. Less horsepower doesn't always mean slower times. The top speed with longer gears should theroetically be higher, but how often do you expect to be doing over 160mph with stock internals? You would need some serious engine work and a good lawyer if you weren't on the track.

I would think that a crvtec (B20 w/VTEC head) with a thick headgasket to lower the CR boosted to 9lbs on stock internals would produce the most power. You would also have a great platform to work with later if you want to change the internals. But thats just a guess.

Again, I would love to see some hard, no BS numbers here.
__________________
All else being equal, there's no replacement for displacement, however all else is not equal.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
1994 Del Sol
B18C
LSD
DC Sports Exhaust
. . .
Hybrid_Sol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2004, 12:29 AM   #93
DeleriousZ
AF Fanatic
 
DeleriousZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Kelowna
Posts: 5,092
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via MSN to DeleriousZ
Re: Which Engine for Forced Induction??

alberta and saskatchewan eh... talented.. yeah i was wondering if the turbo was on your civic or your mustang.. also what kinda hp is it making.. like, numbers if u got em... another thing; how much did you pay for your turbo if you don't mind tellin me.. and damn that's a pretty quick spool up time.. gotta love the ball bearing eh
__________________
ZedEx Crew Member #6
1988 300zx turbo 5spd. 3" mandrel exhaust, filter, afco rad, e-fan, poly engine mounts, mbc at 8.5 psi, turboxs rfl-h bov, gutted plenum, etc.

blown turbo, under construction.. gt35 coming.
DeleriousZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2004, 12:34 AM   #94
eckoman_pdx
Honda God
 
eckoman_pdx's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Portland area
Posts: 3,780
Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts
Send a message via AIM to eckoman_pdx Send a message via Yahoo to eckoman_pdx
Hybrid Sol, do some research on all of AF, you will seem arguements where people post numbers, etc. Honestly though, a big chunk of it has to do with tuning. A GSR can be blown for power, we are not arguing that. A great part can depend on tuning and turbo selection. I don't feel like re-posting a lot of stuff, so read this thread...after all, that is what search is for. Anyways, read the entire thread. You asked for numbers and dynos, and this thread has some of that.

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...4&page=1&pp=15

The whole part about building a motor and what to choose is simple...how much money can you honestly spend in the end. Also, as far as an H22 goes, you won't corner wortht a damn, the added wait to the front creates bad understeer. H22's are more of a straight line only swap in a civic, another reason they arn't recommended often. You are also talking about trannies, you will notice a difference in MORE than just top speed with different trannies. The difference in gearing makes a difference throughout the ENTIRE RPM band, throughout ALL the gears. That's a lot more than top speed.

The question is a lot more than "The question is: which engine will produce the most power when a turbo is bolted on."

It depends on many things, how much boost your engine can SAFELY HANDLE, what kind of turbo, size housing, etc, you are getting, the tuning of it all. The besides that, what type of driving are you doing? A turbo with big lag is awful if you are autocrossing, you don't want it to spoool up and shoot out the extra power in mid turn. The right turbo and engine depends a lot more than just "which engine will produce the most power when a turbo is bolted on." It depends greatly on the end goals the person has for the car, on their finances. It's a lot more than "which engine will produce the most power when a turbo is bolted on. For a person looking to make 250hp who likes the twisties and doesn't have a deep pocket book, a B18B1 with a Disco Potato turbo will give him that power, with near instant spool up times, at a safe boost. However, if he's building an all-out drag car for sancationed compitition, this isn't the words greatest step up, that's for certain. If you want all-out power, check this. The Norwood Racing 4,000 hp Max-4 Integra Funnycar.

http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0202tur_extremeedge/

See, not all of the eqaution is power. Goals for the car, finances, and streetablity are also part of the eqaution for most people.
eckoman_pdx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2004, 12:44 AM   #95
DeleriousZ
AF Fanatic
 
DeleriousZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Kelowna
Posts: 5,092
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via MSN to DeleriousZ
Re: Which Engine for Forced Induction??

hahah WOW!!! that integra is freaking SICK!!! imagine rolling up to that thing at a light!!!
__________________
ZedEx Crew Member #6
1988 300zx turbo 5spd. 3" mandrel exhaust, filter, afco rad, e-fan, poly engine mounts, mbc at 8.5 psi, turboxs rfl-h bov, gutted plenum, etc.

blown turbo, under construction.. gt35 coming.
DeleriousZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2004, 08:41 PM   #96
Hybrid_Sol
AF Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: New Haven, Connecticut
Posts: 42
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: Which Engine for Forced Induction??

Quote:
Originally Posted by eckoman_pdx
Honestly though, a big chunk of it has to do with tuning
I must completely agree here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eckoman_pdx
Hybrid Sol, do some research on all of AF, you will seem arguements where people post numbers, etc. http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...4&page=1&pp=15
Yeah, I read that too. Big help. I want non-BS answers. One dyno says GSR @ 8 psi - 234hp/170trq, another says GSR @ 7psi - 241hp/172trq. It makes no sense, less boost on the same motor = more power!? I bet these numbers were reached using the scientific method. The biggest point I was trying to make was that with two very different motors, the amount of boost is not the only factor for power, and a turbo not spooling up all the way doesn't necessarily mean your quartermile time will be hurt if the gears are shorter. I want some supported numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eckoman_pdx
...you will notice a difference in MORE than just top speed with different trannies. The difference in gearing makes a difference throughout the ENTIRE RPM band, throughout ALL the gears. That's a lot more than top speed.
I know this. I was stating that the only unquestionable advantage of longer gears was the top speed, that is if you could make enough horsepower. Is there anyone out there who has driven the same turbo car, but with different trannys? What happened? I'd honestly like to know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eckoman_pdx
The question is a lot more than "The question is...It depends on many things, how much boost your engine can SAFELY HANDLE...
My understanding of the poll that stared this thread was bolting a turbo on a stock motor with potential to build it up over time. I also thought that it was understood that we weren't trying to produce enough horsepower on a stock motor for just long enough to launch one of the pistons into orbit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eckoman_pdx
if he's building an all-out drag car for sancationed compitition...See, not all of the eqaution is power. Goals for the car, finances, and streetablity are also part of the eqaution for most people.
Which is it though? "An all-out drag car" or an inexpensive streetable solution?
If he IS "building an all-out drag car" then I doubt he's using stock internals and the game completely changes.

Perhaps we should have 3 threads:
* What's the best motor to bolt a turbo onto for cheap (B18B/C???)?
* What's the best motor for a dragster? Probably a built H22.
* What's the best motor for autocross? Probably a built crvtec.
__________________
All else being equal, there's no replacement for displacement, however all else is not equal.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
1994 Del Sol
B18C
LSD
DC Sports Exhaust
. . .
Hybrid_Sol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2004, 08:50 PM   #97
PWMAN
AF Enthusiast
 
PWMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Enola, Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,883
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Well first I'll ask about the turbo dyno numbers. Was this both for the same turbo? I mean a larger turbo that pushes more CFM is going to produce more power than a smaller turbo boosting more PSI but less CFM. Like maybe the 8 PSI 234 HP was a 14G turbo, and the 241 HP on 7 PSI was a 16G turbo. I dunno, does somebody else know? But I was just pointing that out, it could be a good possibility.

One other thing, I believe this thread was started with the ''best but not so expensive streetable turbo engine'' in mind. Just my
__________________
88' Dodge Shadow- 2.2L, 5 speed...a couple mods
12.37@111.75 MPH
PWMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2004, 09:05 PM   #98
boosted331
AF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 1,132
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: Re: Which Engine for Forced Induction??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delerious93integra
alberta and saskatchewan eh... talented.. yeah i was wondering if the turbo was on your civic or your mustang.. also what kinda hp is it making.. like, numbers if u got em... another thing; how much did you pay for your turbo if you don't mind tellin me.. and damn that's a pretty quick spool up time.. gotta love the ball bearing eh
Well, I stay at a friends house who lives in Melfort a lot (weekends and pretty much any other vacation time I get) do go motorbiking, ATVing, hunting, etc, but my place is in Fort Saskatchewan, so that's why I say both. I'm running the GT35R on my civic, it was 1400 bucks and worth every penny. I don't have any dyno numbers (as there are none out here!) but I have the car tuned to a pretty flat 11:1 AFR under boost, and at 18 psi i'd guess it's making around 400 WHP, which is pretty much useless on the street, even on BFG's. The turbo on my mustang is a PT76-GTS with a .96 A/R tang housing. I'm still fiddling with the AEM, but I am eventually going to put it on the rollers, my goal is 700 RWHP on 91 octane + meth injection , and 950+ RWHP on race gas. I purchased the turbo for 1395 dollars from induction motorsports.
boosted331 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2004, 09:20 PM   #99
whtteg
AF Enthusiast
 
whtteg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 3,974
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via AIM to whtteg
Re: Which Engine for Forced Induction??

Quote:
Originally Posted by eckoman_pdx
I remember that car
__________________
whtteg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2004, 06:06 PM   #100
F23A4Racer750IL
AF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: South Amboy, New Jersey
Posts: 588
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: Which Engine for Forced Induction??

yea that car was crazy. did that even have a honda engine.
F23A4Racer750IL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2004, 09:06 PM   #101
EG_Civic
AF Regular
 
EG_Civic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Inverness, Florida
Posts: 88
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
sorry to interject but dont you have to watch your oil pressure when your turbo/supercharging an engine. Thats what Ive heard. If so then the LS motor would probably be better for just stomping on the gas. Thats what Ive heard anyway
EG_Civic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2004, 02:40 AM   #102
eckoman_pdx
Honda God
 
eckoman_pdx's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Portland area
Posts: 3,780
Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts
Send a message via AIM to eckoman_pdx Send a message via Yahoo to eckoman_pdx
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hybrid_Sol
My understanding of the poll that stared this thread was bolting a turbo on a stock motor with potential to build it up over time. I also thought that it was understood that we weren't trying to produce enough horsepower on a stock motor for just long enough to launch one of the pistons into orbit.
This thread is way off that topic by now...it's been dead and re-born more times than I care to remember. If we are talking best engine to on boost on stock internals without launching one of the pistons into orbit, then most people will agree that the B18B1 is the best motor to boost in this aspect.

No PWAN, the cars had 2 different turbos. They were both completly different turbos. As we know, this will effect the power output, even if both turobs are at the same PSI. That's why I tried to tell him part of the power eqaution is what turbo should choose to run. That's why it's hard to compare dynos of 2 different cars with 2 different motors and 2 different turbos. When you add in the fact they most likely used 2 different dynos, it's a nightmare. Different Dynos will show different power outputs for the exact same car. That's why you always baseline on a dyno every time you tune, even if you already think you "know" the baseline power number. Turbo magazine has an article on this, one 350Z, 7 dynos, all in one day. The power output each dyno showed was different. The range from the lowest output one of the dynos showed the highest was upwards to 30HP. As we know, the car didn't flucuate that much. It wasn't modified during this. Same set-up, same car, same motor. Just different dynos. That's why the article was titled "Dynos Lie, We prove it."

F23A4Racer750IL, it's not a Honda motor. Everthing about that car's motor was completely custom, right down to the block. As they say, with money all is possible
eckoman_pdx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2004, 10:18 AM   #103
YellowITR479
AF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Newark, Delaware
Posts: 362
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: Which Engine for Forced Induction??

I dunno, I wish I had the shorter gearing in my GSR, I would go faster.
__________________
1996 GSR w/ 1995 OBD-1 B18C1, Hondata S200 w/ P61 ECU, LS Tranny w/ Quaife LSD,ClutchMstr Stg 5,T/4 AR .60 w/ HKS Wastegate,RC 660 cc Injectors,Had Throttlebody,Skunk2 Intake Manifold,Eagle Sleeves,JE Pistons, Carrillo Rods,Stock Head & Internals,Thermal 3" Exhaust w/ no Cat,AEM Fuel Rail-Riser-UEGO-Cam Gears-Pullies-Fuel Filter,255 Fuel Pump,MSD 6A,GReddy Front Mount, 2-12's, 3 Amps,MB QuartComponents,Type-R Lip & 00 Head & Tailights,
2000 Integra Type R: Totaled
YellowITR479 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2004, 05:58 PM   #104
GWInquisitor14
AF Enthusiast
 
GWInquisitor14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Posts: 185
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via AIM to GWInquisitor14
Re: Which Engine for Forced Induction??

I dunno if anyone touched on this subject, but what about a H23 engine w/ the H22 head swap. It will have less compression than the 9.8 w/ the larger displacement and about 9.3 comp ratio. Plus its got more displacement.
__________________
If the car really knew about all this trickery, hed be pretty mad.

FOR SALE
2 10" Alpine 1041 Type R
JBL BP 1200.1 1200 watt RMS amp

Message me if you are interested, make me an offer
GWInquisitor14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2004, 02:50 AM   #105
eckoman_pdx
Honda God
 
eckoman_pdx's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Portland area
Posts: 3,780
Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts
Send a message via AIM to eckoman_pdx Send a message via Yahoo to eckoman_pdx
Re: Re: Which Engine for Forced Induction??

Quote:
Originally Posted by GWInquisitor14
I dunno if anyone touched on this subject, but what about a H23 engine w/ the H22 head swap. It will have less compression than the 9.8 w/ the larger displacement and about 9.3 comp ratio. Plus its got more displacement.
First off, I know you weren't the person who brought this thread bacl to life...so this isn't directed at just you. Try not to post in older threads when possible...

now for your question...

The H22 has thin cylinder walls, which can't handle much more than 8psi. I don't know for sure, but I would assume the H23 walls are thin like that also...though I'd want to check into it before saying that for sure. I do know that the H22 has thin cylinder walls and therefor can;t handle much above 8psi on stock internals. Either way, that motor will throw off the weight balance of the car, creating mega understeer, You would be able to turn worth anything, it's not worth it IMO...however....if you have an Accord...this is a much better option than an F22, as the b-series ins't an option in an accord.
eckoman_pdx is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How can forced induction increase engine efficiency? caffeineaholic Engineering/Technical 4 07-17-2010 01:41 AM
What steps do I need to take to prepare my car for Forced Induction? (junkyard turbo) Xenostalgia Camaro Discussions 27 06-07-2005 10:13 AM
Engine Management: Choices for Forced Induction Setups igor@af Tech Check 0 07-21-2004 01:53 AM
Engine Management: Choices for Forced Induction setups texan by texan (Brian) 8 09-03-2003 09:41 AM
3" exhaust system choices for forced induction use?? JD@af Forced Induction 4 06-03-2002 04:33 PM

Reply

POST REPLY TO THIS THREAD


Bookmarks
Go Back   Automotive Forums .com Car Chat > Engineering/Technical

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:59 AM.

Community Participation Guidelines | How to use your User Control Panel

Powered by: vBulletin | Copyright Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
 
 
no new posts