Used 944 pricing...... with cooling fault!

[FabricGATOR]

I am trying to negotiate a deal for a 1987 944 with a cooling problem.
I'm not familiar with these cars but am real handy with a wrench. I have tried to find some sources for used parts at local salvage yards without much promise. Can I pursuade someone out there for some insight as to what I might be looking at as far as repairs.

This vehicle has a few dents, the inop odometer, inop side view mirrors, R134a converted A/C inop and I did look for the rear hatch detachment as I had learned from information that I learned at this site. Yes, I did see a space forming at the hatch forward frame to the glass. The car has a problem with the cooling system that is beyond the sellers ability to comprehend, repair, or width of his wallet. His stated mileage is about 88,000 miles..... who knows.

I did the CO2 test at the coolant tank and showed positive. (I'm not sure I did the test correctly as I stated I am unfamiliar with foreign automobiles, the sealed coolant system with the tank) The coolant tank did not show signs of crazing or bulging. No oil in the coolant tank, I had seen the fans turning slowly another time, but they didnt run at this look/see. The radiator and hoses stayed cool, although the temp guage rose somewhat quickly towards an ultimate overheat that we didnt let get that far. I didnt note any steam at the exhaust.

His story goes that a german repair station told him radiator or head gasket. A second opinion confirmed radiator so he took it to bob's radiator for a discount. They couldnt keep the temp down after a new and told him head gasket so he had them replace the old, where at that point they had fan problems..... but they finally got them turning (I wonder what the fix was)(I see the kid cheaping out on them after the radiator didnt fix the overheat and them having to put back in the old radiator all unhappy especially when the fans got ugly)I dont see any evidence of a fan hot wiring job...

I would love to own, drive and maintain this type of automobile. It seems that I should be able to afford this if I'm able to keep the temperature down to a safe level. If I am to be able to drive Porsche now in my financial situation, I'm going to have to start with a project and rely on my aircraft mechanic skills and abilities.

All the other discrepancys I stated before I am confident that I can manage. I am asking for your help in possible scenarios for this cooling system problem, other checks that I should do to confirm or disprove your theories, possible sources for reasonably priced used parts, and if possible what you think this car might be worth. I am in eastern Florida.

Thank you for your anticipated responce!
Kurt

**PS. While the car was running I remembered to look under the oil fill cap for paste/oil/coolant. (none) I did experience a noise that sounded like fuel injectors ticking(not the lifters) slowly develope and I put my hand over the fill hole and there was vaccuum.... I found this peculiar. Any insight about this?

[83-944]

If the headgasket went bad, you would have some sort of oil-water mixing. Pull the dipstick and look at the oil, if it looks like chocolate milk, since the headgasket was replaced, you will have to re-seal the oil cooler attached to the oil filter mount. Sometimes, a PITA but very doable w/ a little/lot of patience.

Engine overheating, try this, burp the system. Where the top radiator hose goes into the engine, there is a bleeder screw. Unscrew the bleeder screw and squeeze the upper hose, close the bleeder screw. If you get air, the system wasn't bled properly and this could easily cause your overheating problems.

If no air, the thermostat is probably jammed. Bigger PITA.

Look at www.clarks-garage.com and click on workshop manual. All of the processes above and MANY more are described there in detail.

Unless it's real cheap, find another example. there are plenty of well maintained examples in Florida to choose from. It doesn't depend on your budget cause if you get a cheap 944 w/ lots of problems, you'll spend twice as muchmoney fixing it up than if you bought a nicer, better maintained one.

[FabricGATOR]

Thanks for your words! I just spent more then an hour or so reading over at clarks-garage, Neat stuff! I'm guessing I've probably got some incureable bug or something If I dont pick up that car I'm sure to get one eventually.

Before I read about the thermostat being secured into the water pump I suspected that it was located under that 90 degree spout at the top of the head and could have possibly been inside an air bubble that wouldnt allow it to function properly.... I guess its not quite like the Chevy Vega I had as a kid. I am going to try to understand more about what is and isnt happening with this car. I'd like to have it for a thousand.

Confirm for me please....
-A/C off, radiator temp switch closed (hot) I should get one fan on..... with or without the ignition on.
- A/C will actuate the other fan unless...... some (what) sensor realizes that the coolant is very hot and requires extra airflow? What controls the second fan to run for "emergency" airflow with the A/C off?

Is there somewhere I can get a schematic that shows all pertinant systems that control those cooling fans? If their not working properly, she's gonna overhe.........oops,

I guess I have to get the radiator hot before I start to worry about removing heat. Can I pop off the hose and remove/ run it without the thermostat for diagnostic purpose?
I do greatly appreciate your help........
Kurt

[83-944]

-A/C off, radiator temp switch closed (hot) I should get (two) fans on..... with (high)or without (low)the ignition on.
- A/C will actuate the other fan unless...... some (what) sensor realizes that the coolant is very hot and requires extra airflow? What controls the second fan to run for "emergency" airflow with the A/C off? (the sensor on the radiator is a thermoswitch that kicks in low @60 degrees, high @83 degrees, it activates both fans)

[83-944]

Oops, there's more

schematic, it's for an 84, but it's better than nothing: http://www.pelicanparts.com/944/elec...l_diagrams.htm
I suggest you copy and print out all the sections, tape them together. It'll make life a lot easier.
Pop off the hose, get a pair of Master Cylinder snap ring pliers (ill see if I can find a picture) and learn some new four letter words. Now, you're not supposed to run w/o a thermostat but there's a grey area for diagnostics. Good Luck!

[aeronautica86]

How much does he want for the car?

[FabricGATOR]

Thanks for the info 83-944, I need to talk the kid into letting me have the car here at the house for a mechanics inspection over the weekend. I do like the airframe oops, body style, the way it drives, etc. I'll have one someday, but I am considering what was said about finding something from a more conscientious owner with records. I really appreciate that from an aviation point of view. In my quest for knowlege and parts, I have seen a few for sale that are at least in driveable condition for 2-3 thousand where as I'm talking in the 1K to $1200 range for this one. It seems like a well built vehicle and I'm sure I can learn the nuances of its maintenance...... I'm not scared!

The front bumper is pushed in on the passenger side and the rh rear quarter has a crunch and SHE OVERHEATS! Think it worth a thousand?

[FabricGATOR]

Master Cylinder pliers,,,,, the cir-clip pliers? the innies and outies? with the pins?

How about the temp switch in the radiator...... two or three contacts? I remember seeing it but I think its only a two contact device. (as installed on this vehicle) Remember, bob's radiator shop was trying to get out of a deal gone bad with this seller....... When I saw the fans turn they were painfully slow which led me to suspect that "bob" might have monkey wired the fans and I was thinking that he almost might have wired them in series (6 volts each) by their slow speed ..... I am aware that there might be a two speed circuitry... (you confirmed that)

I still should get the heat to the radiator 1st. I will pull the thermo to verify circulation (if the bleeding doesnt cure it) then I can observe the cooling fan operation and go from there.

My Carbon Dioxide test at the tank was flawed. I should have purged the stale air from the tank first by filling it to overflow, then lowered the coolant level to create an air pocket for the CO2 to form in.... thus getting an accurate test (Snap-on overheat diagnostic tool).

Wish me luck! (or tell me that I'm silly)
Kurt

[83-944]

MC pliers : these


Thermostat switch:
two contacts, early models [ground - high]
three contacts later models. [low - ground - high]
If you only got two wires, oh boy.

[83-944]

you may also have luck w/ a small pair of needlenose pliers with makeshift tips ground down.

hey, does the coolant level go down when you pressurize the overflow tank? If so, then there is another air pocket inside the cooling system being compressed. Don't forget to open the heater valve to the cabin area.

[FabricGATOR]

Thanks again, I have a few versions of those circlip removal tools, I dont suspect that I should have a problem removing it........ haha ignorance is bliss!

Thats a great idea about the coolant level under pressure. I havent had a pressure tester for diagnostics myself. I understand about the possible bubble and the coolant level. I'm going to get the "beer keg pump kit" from a friend and try the bleeding procedure. This vehicle is 1987 N/A and I suspect that it should have the high/low thermo-switch. (three contact) Is there really a ground at that switch or is it.....
line(battery positive (+)),
low load,
and high load
Your right, the schematics are hard to follow without printing and taping together, I must do that.

Now when we're talking 60 degrees for low speed fan and 83 degrees for high........ thats celcius? I was puzzled that the thermostats opened in that range and later realized that we must be talking in metrics.

Looking back at the thermo switch I can see how they could wire it so that the power goes to the fan and then to the radiator thermoswitch which will choose:
A: open contact........................no fan
B: low resistance to ground........ High fan
C: higher resistance to ground.....low fan

My friend told me once " If its an electrical problem its gotta be the battery or the wires" (just a memorable quote)

Keep Me Thinkin!
Kurt

[FabricGATOR]

Another question please.......

Which direction does the water flow? From the pump, through the radiator, and back into the top of the head?

Is it possible that the waterpump could not be circulating without any other symptoms (leak out of weep hole (if it has one), squeal, seized, wobble, etc..)

I'm not familiar with automotive engineering other then chevy or ford... an occasional dodge. I also dont have the car here so I can look and experiment.
I'm trying to learn what my diagnostic steps will be so I can figure it out next time I can get my hands on it.

83-944 you have been a big help! Thank You!

[aeronautica86]

sorry to go off topic here, but you did mention that you might prefer a car that was better taken care of/with records....how much do you have to spend? I have an '87 944 in great condition that I might be selling - records, lots of new parts etc...I also have some pics. This one's worth a bit more than the one you're looking at though...

[83-944]

Yeah, the degrees are in celcius.

Yes, it uses ground, like you're thinking.

water flows to pump (when thermostat is open) - engine - out top to radiator - back to pump.

The impellor is plastic on some water pumps so it may have broken loose from the shaft. I believe that's what your thinking. If the thermostat is closed, the water pump will pump water through the heater core still. Run the car w/ the heater on and see if it blows hot air. Let the engine warm up first, duh.

Go back to Clarks Garage, look up clutch inspection. If the clutch is nearly worn out, find something else. The clutch job costs 1 week and about $500-800. It is the most in depth maintenance job for the car.

[FabricGATOR]

Cheese head...... triple square.......????

Are these the bolts that I used to get with my Hooker Headers? The ones that take either the 12 pt socket or the 12 pt box wrench......? or something completly different.
Do tell......
Kurt