Turbo or S2?? Best Buy 944? (Determined Buyer)

[YeTi]

Great! Thanks!

[87Porsche951]

I would think you can get a 3.0L block and do a all bore 3.3L. I know 951 owners have done all bore 2.8L. I know a few that do a stroke and bore. 3.0L already has decent low end tq so if you can punch it to 3.3L safely that might be a option you would want expecially if you want more high end. Porsche made the engines oversquare from the factory so if you really wanted more tq you can go stroker and it would help square the motor. Its been my experience that car w/ larger bore than stroke can achive higher RPM's and will have faster top end speed but the downfall is low end tq and most are pretty slow off the line.
If you go with a all bore 3.3L you wont need a different sized crank but you will need larger pistons and different rods. I know good rods like Carillo are over $1,000 a set.

[YeTi]

... (YeTi says nothing. just whistles and looks in his empty wallet as a moth flies out; wishing his $30,000 would come just a bit earlier...)

[Black5gen]

944S2NUThere, Get the S2 if you are going to use it as a daily driver. I bought my 1990 S2 mint! Still had to invest about 6k into it to have it perfect. Example Timing belts rollers, camchain tennsioner, suspension, front and rear engine seals, new bushings when I did the yellow konis, brakes, electrical tuneup etc.. Really research this before you jump. The 951's are a great car for the summer/weekends unless you are a richman high maintenance. I have many friends with 951's and 951S's none of them are daily drivers. Anyways good luck on the hunt and check out this site for more questions. www.rennlist.com

[over1g]

Lots of misinformation in this thread. Shorter connecting rods is not a good way to reduce compression. Also, it's usually not a good idea to guess what compression ratio can handle what type of boost as there's many variables from the shape of the combustion chamber to the squish area to ignition timing, air/fuel mixture, dynamic compression ratio, etc. etc.

Turbocharging an S2 engine with a real increase in power would take a lot more than just lowering the compression. At a bare minimum (other than rods/pistons ofcourse), a new and custom exhaust manifold, custom plumbing for the turbo, and possibly a custom intake manifold. Do not forget the injectors/fuel pressure regulator, engine management, etc. and one would hope cooling upgrades as well. In short, it's not conceivable for $10k, if that price includes purchasing a suitable S2.
Ahmet

[saab9kturbo]

you can "slap" a turbo on it as well as you can with any other motor. In fact, the stock internals in the s2 are probably substantially stronger than those of the turbo. The only difference is compression ratio. I would guarantee that the s2 motor with lowered compression could run more boosted horsepower than the 2.5L motor. everyone makes a big deal about "stock internals" and such, alot of times it's simply compression. How many know that the 924 n/a transaxle is stronger than the 944 turbo (951) transaxle? Its true. In fact the S2 trans is stronger than the 951 and has better ratios. In additon, DOHC means less predetonation. So before you make a stink about stock internals ask me about the 9 lbs of boost im running in a previously n/a saab 9000, its got 10.5:1 compression to boot. Also a note about electronics....the S2 has a mass sensing system, not MAP, so one can run low boost pressures without any sort of new electronics, the computer should compensate easily for the increased airflow and the injectors should be fine. the only major concern is tapping the block for oil.

[over1g]

What makes you think that the S2 has stronger internals compared to the turbo? I'm just curious. Also, why bring in the transaxles to this discussion (the 944 S2 does NOT have a stronger transaxle compared to the turbo), but if you will go ahead and tell me how you figure the 924 na transaxle is stronger than the 944 series transaxles, I would appreciate it. And what about the S2 box having better gear ratios? Better ratios for what? This is a completely subjective issue. I would like my turbo to be geared higher... You make so many umbrella statements that it's hard to smack you with your own bullshit. Case in point, "s2 motor with lowered compression could run more boosted horsepower than the 2.5L motor", WTF is this w/out quantifying any of the variables? This is like saying "your dumbass could offer something of value to this thread if you did some research", where you could just as easly be retarded, and not be capable of an intelligent conversation.

What exactly is so hard about tapping the block for oil? (Which isn't even necessary, as one can just use a balance shaft housing from a turbo for this purpose, or hand a monkey the block, and he'll give it to you w/a hole on it).
Ahmet

[saab9kturbo]

[quote=over1g]What makes you think that the S2 has stronger internals compared to the turbo? I'm just curious. Also, why bring in the transaxles to this discussion (the 944 S2 does NOT have a stronger transaxle compared to the turbo), but if you will go ahead and tell me how you figure the 924 na transaxle is stronger than the 944 series transaxles, I would appreciate it. And what about the S2 box having better gear ratios? Better ratios for what? This is a completely subjective issue. I would like my turbo to be geared higher... You make so many umbrella statements that it's hard to smack you with your own bullshit. Case in point, "s2 motor with lowered compression could run more boosted horsepower than the 2.5L motor", WTF is this w/out quantifying any of the variables? This is like saying "your dumbass could offer something of value to this thread if you did some research", where you could just as easly be retarded, and not be capable of an intelligent conversation.

Well, to answer the question about the transmissions would have to deal with the fact that if this person is looking for more low end acceleration, which they obviously seem like they are, then the S2's shorter final drive is a "better" choice for this application. In addition, vehicles such as my buddys MR2 turbo have stronger syncros and better differential over n/a models- the strength of a transmission is certainly a concern when discussing these matters. The 924 trans is stronger than the 944's, you can say that it isn't but you're wrong, my friend is a 944 freak and owns them and in addition several peformance sites will tell you that if you want to run more than 350 horsepower then the 924 trans is an option that should be looked into (look at http://www.windward-perf.com/944turbo.html). One of the sites lists the 944 trans as audi produced and the 924 as Porsche produced, im not sure on the accuracy of that statement but i suppose you could say that is evidence. And I'd like to see anyone quantifying variables (which you say the S2 tranny is CERTAINLY not stronger than the 951's, give me a scientific analysis that has proven that) about this scenario as far as the S2 vs th 951 motors; that is something i would tend to say and perhaps I am wrong, ill give you that, although i do think the DOHC engine is a far more efficient engine. Finally, I guess I didn't understand how difficult turbo oil supply would be in the 944, in the 9000 (if the holes where not in place) it would require removing the head and oil pan and drilling both out.

I suppose you have some witty, snide reply for all of that although I don't know if this is really that important to me. Perhaps the moderator should pull your post for calling another member "retarded," which is a totally ridiculous observation. I won't claim you're retarded, and I dont believe it's something I deserve either.

[over1g]

Here's my witty, snide reply:
I didn't call you a retard, re-read my post.
Here's your scientific "analysis" for why the S2 box isn't stronger vs. the turbo box: they're basically the same gear box, except the gear ratios. A 924 box is NOT stronger than a 944 box, and windward started that legend. Is the guy who told you this the guy that owns windward (drives a viper too) If you know him, do everbody a favor and tell him to stop spreading myths. PS: Only the very early 4 speed 924 has a Porsche built box. My problem really is your assumptions, and passing of bad information as truth. Yes the 16 valve engine has excellent combustion chambers, doesn't mean it's a much stronger engine though. Your buddies MR-2, and anything on it does not mean anything in this context either. I hope I'm getting through to you. I'm sorry for coming off as harsh, if it makes you feel better, you here by have my permission to tell yourself that my mom didn't breast feed me enough when I was younger. <--that means (for the second time) that I mean this in a joking way.
Ahmet

[over1g]

You know what though, in all seriousness... I disagree with you in some ways but I'm certainly being an asshole about it. I did not mean to offend you, and meant what I said in the above posts lightly. If you take offense to any of what I said, my apologies.
Ahmet

[Hellbendt]

Let's put it this way...the 951 is more like hot and cold. Hit the pedal then you get lag suddenly the boost hits and hold on your gone. Bottom end is not so great...driving around town the 951 is very poor. Mid-high range driving it's a beast nothing can touch you. Bottom line the 951 is a sprinter.

S2- More like a better all around athlete very tractable around town and moderate power.

As for modding the 951 is very responsive to minor bolt on like chip/MBC/WG/exhasut then you cand be boosting 10-15 psi on a stock HG.

[andera]

Originally Posted by 87Porsche951

cbass, you have to remember those honda;s they turbo cant handle more than 6psi of boost without unrelaiblity problems and potential motor damage.

A stock 944 Turbo is set for 10.9psi boost & can can handle about 15-16psi on stock internals and still be reliable.

Now lets see a honda or S2 handle 16psi and last.

S2 would be great to boost since it does make great n/a power. Many 951 owners build turbocharged S2 based 3.0L engines for there cars but those engines are built from the ground up.

look into the honda B18B1 engine... strongest honda engine. on stock internals can support closet to 400WHP (if tuning is done right). And the higher compression is better, but easier to blwo the engine, you can run less boost with the higher compression and get the same HP as a lower compression engine. Also you say hondas can only boost 6PSI? well that all depends on the turbo a smaller turbo at 6PSI might only push half of what a larger turbo at 6PSI will boost....

[aeronautica86]

ummm with a total of four 968 turbo s cars coming out of the factory....you aren't gonna be a 968 T engine that was made by porsche...but you could build your own

[ledhedsymbols]

If you are hell bent for leather (Judas Priest reference) on a 951 go for it. As with the entire 944/951/968 series, maintenance records IMO is the biggest single factor. You will pay more out of the gate, but end up spending less. If that timing belt goes you are done. That said, there are a great number of options available for the 944/951 series. The 944S2 and the 968 have similar problems though, not much available for upgrades and very expensive. The gains to be had with the 3.0L mills are quite impressive though. Check out Powerhaus, Anderson Motorworks Inc. and Ninemeister for some options. Most of their work requires the car to be in their shop, but that might be a good thing depending on how competent you are on these engines. They are wonderful as long as they are taken care of by a competent mechanic (you or a pro.) In closing, buy the absolute nicest example you can with the best maintenance history once you decide which one you want. There are a metric asston of options available for them all, and the really radical stuff is best left to the pros to make it all work together effectively. Just my 2 cents....

Keep Smilin,
Micah

[saab9kturbo]

Originally Posted by over1g

You know what though, in all seriousness... I disagree with you in some ways but I'm certainly being an asshole about it. I did not mean to offend you, and meant what I said in the above posts lightly. If you take offense to any of what I said, my apologies.
Ahmet

Apology accepted man, i suppose i got alittle crazy on the assumptions...doing alot of basing on past experiences with other turbo vehicles. Anyways, us sports car people have to stick together. It's all good. If you find any 944 turbo's under 3,800 in your area that'd be great too (a bit unrealistic perhaps).