90 2.5 Vin U Cranks will not start

[CoderOne]

1990 Cutlais Calais 2.5

Sons car. Drove through a mud puddle and has never started since. Car ran fantastic before the puddle. Puddle came right up to bottom of door panel.

Son says car just quietly died with no sudden lurch or buckin of the engine. I asked about guping water into the engine because I found evidence of water a few days in the carb when we got it towed home.

Car acts like it wants to start. If you add ether, you get a little fire started in carb

Distributorless ignition with 2 coils.

No trouble codes. But battery was removed and recharged before we started diagnosing the problem.

Replaced Crank Angle Sensor and EGR valve.
Double checked plug wires are in the right places.

Gets spark on all wires, but not a hot blue; seemingly enough to start though.
Gets fuel to TBI; tested injector with simple test light and it pulses on/off when cranking engine.

We have 88 Calais Factory manual and it covers a lot about the 2.5 Vin U. Somethings we cannot test for lack of special tools like scanner that can read cranking RPMs, special spark tester to see if a secondary spark is occuring on an opposing cylinder. (If I said that right)

I am down it seems to timing but can find no reference in the manual for changing timing chain on this engine. I do not know how to find TDC without a rotor We are trying to determine timing without opening the cover and all that is required to visually check the chain and sprockets.

Any suggestions or ideas?

Dave

[GTP Dad]

Dave, If the water was that deep you may want to try replacing the crank position sensor. However I think your problem may lie with the ignition module, since you have some spark that could be preventing full spark to the coils. Try removing it and cleaning the mount under the im. Sometimes corrosion will cause a bad ground and cause problems. Let us know what happens once you try something.

[CoderOne]

Hi

The cranks sensor was replaced; first thing. It did have a little crack in the tip and a bit of a crack down the body. It broke in half after it came out. May have banged it trying to get it out of a maze of close quarters to remove it completely from the car because it was not broke in half when I got it out. (Son did the twisting maze thing)

There was a bit of evidence water got in behind the module. Little water drops right in the crank sensor plug male part to the module. Removed the rubber piece at the bottom of the plug and used q-tip to dry it out.

Removed both coils and checked plugs. They were dry but now a week has passed.

No corroision under the module itself. Put everything back together and put it back and tried to start.

Running down the trouble shooting diagram in the 88 manual - first test Crank - No start, I couldn't test for cranking RPM but with new crank sensor in it? Assumed answer would be yes. If the answer is no, it says to replace the module. BTW, the first test is for determinnig if the problem is fuel or DIS. We do not have a fuel pressure gauge.

First Trouble shooting diagram led me to stuck EGR. Removed EGR. It was missing the seat in exhaust side and it was clogged when you compressed the diaphram. Gave it a good cleaning and got it to compress air. Put it back on, no start. Replaced the EGR because I could easily blow air in from the exhaust side (round hole) without any resistence from the diaphram.

Car really wants to start. It just won't "catch" and fire up. Me head takes me to jumping time or somehow just enough out of time.

The manual says until 400 RPM the DIS is distributing the spark for the most part based on a pulse coming from the crank angle sensor. After 400 RPM, the ECM tells the DIS when to spark. If I read it correctly.

Dave

[GTP Dad]

Since you have done everything that you mentioned I think your issue may be with the ignition module itself. I really don't think it would jump time just from running through water. Of course anything is possible but doubtful in this case. If it died a slow death then something either fuel or electrical has gone bad. You tried to start it with starting fluid and it didn't start so that usually indicates that there is an issue in the ignition system. My suggestion is to find a wrecking yard and get a new module and coils and bolt them on to see what happens. Also, check the plugs to see if they are wet. If they are you should have enough fuel to get it started. If not then the issue may be with the ecm itself and totally non-water related. Good Luck!

[CoderOne]

Hi

DIS and coil pack was replaced with wrecking yard one. Problem remains the same.

Checked spark plug as suggested to see if they were wet. They do not appear to be. We put a shot of ether into a plug hole and it sounded more like it wanted to start.

Re: Slow Death. I don't know exactly what that means. He was driving through the puddle and it just died; stalled and would not start again. They pushed it out of the puddle.

eBay has an ECM for cheap enough. We'll order that.

If the injector is spraying gas, how can it not get to the plugs? (We checked two for wet)

[GTP Dad]

There are two possibilities here. First, the fuel pump is bad and not sending fuel to the engine along with that the fuel filter may be plugged. The second issue is that the ECM is bad and not sending a signal to the injectors to fire correctly or at all.

[CoderOne]

Hi

Replaced ECM without removing original. Still no start.

I had my son pump the gas a bit while trying to start it to see if fuel was getting to the plugs. This time we had the air cleaner on but not tightened. The top of the air cleaner blew off and the wing nuts went flying.

Any more ideas?

Dave

[maxwedge]

When this stalled in the " puddle" it may have kicked back and jumped time or broken something in the timing gears, take off the valve cover and see if the valves are opening ,then take a compression test or do that first actually.. This is the first thing to check, need compression for any start up.

[CoderOne]

Hi

LOL... was doing all that while waiting for your answer.

Found water in the oil. However I checked the dip stick before we towed the car home. Oh well.

Oil on top of tappet things. Valves going right to left, oil on 1,3,4 and 5. Rest have no oil on top. Those that have oil on top have obvious water mixed in.

Compression:

4 = 50 psi
3 = 85
2 = 50
1 = 17 but this was a tough one due to angle of plug. I seemed to barely get a few threads from the tester into the spark plug threads and am not sure of a good seal. (nothing was heard leaking)

[CoderOne]

Oh yes. All the tappets ( I think they are called) are moving

[maxwedge]

Compression seems very low, maybe you should pull the front cover and look at what is going on in the timing cover, also it may have locked up for instant and bent a connecting rod.

[rjuddy]

Hi I know this is an old post but how did it end. I have the same problem. Have replaced ICM, CKS, TPS, and O2. Getting fuel and spark but when cranked it tries to start and blows firw out of TBI

[maxwedge]

Sounds like crossed wires or timing gear/ chain issues, and yes this thread is way too old. In the future start a new one, very slim chance the op would reply.