Automotive Forums .com - the leading automotive community online! Automotive Forums .com - the leading automotive community online!
Automotive Forums .com - the leading automotive community online! 
-
Latest | 0 Rplys
Go Back   Automotive Forums .com Car Chat > Car Comparisons
Car Comparisons Compare any cars and find out what every body else thinks. Just refrain from making stupid comparos like Viper vs. Geo Metro :)
Reply Show Printable Version Show Printable Version | Email this Page Email this Page | Subscription Subscribe to this Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-07-2003, 11:46 AM   #91
VenomInMyVeins
AF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Denver (Hometown), Colorado
Posts: 315
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: z06 vs modena

[/quote] And you know this because? [quote]

I did a study on this for physics and I found information regarding the mounting of engines and drive trains in mr cars and I also found information about how older ferrari and lambo designers were having problems keeping the center of gravity low. Plus all you have to do is think about it. In a MR car all of the drivetrain and engine is in the back. In the FR it's spread from front to back. So where's all that extra stuff going to go? it can't go any further down or to the sides so it has to go up. "The output from the gearbox was transmitted back to the rear axle via a drive shaft locating underneath the engine, inside the sump. Inevitably, the engine had to be raised for a few inches to accommodate the drive shaft. As a result, center of gravity was raised, too." That's a quote from http://autozine.kyul.net/countach/countach_5.htm That's just one instance. Look around the net. You can find several more.

Kurt. Great site. Rotational Inertia didn't even cross my mind. It's all starting to come together
VenomInMyVeins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2003, 11:51 AM   #92
VenomInMyVeins
AF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Denver (Hometown), Colorado
Posts: 315
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: z06 vs modena

I believe it was a rhetorical remark Deakins
VenomInMyVeins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2003, 11:51 AM   #93
Deakins
AF Enthusiast
 
Deakins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Aalesund
Posts: 1,879
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Re: Re: z06 vs modena

Quote:
Originally Posted by VenomInMyVeins
I did a study on this for physics and I found information regarding the mounting of engines and drive trains in mr cars and I also found information about how older ferrari and lambo designers were having problems keeping the center of gravity low. Plus all you have to do is think about it. In a MR car all of the drivetrain and engine is in the back. In the FR it's spread from front to back. So where's all that extra stuff going to go? it can't go any further down or to the sides so it has to go up. "The output from the gearbox was transmitted back to the rear axle via a drive shaft locating underneath the engine, inside the sump. Inevitably, the engine had to be raised for a few inches to accommodate the drive shaft. As a result, center of gravity was raised, too." That's a quote from http://autozine.kyul.net/countach/countach_5.htm That's just one instance. Look around the net. You can find several more.
This deserves a quote and a giant
Are you really that stupid?
__________________
The ringing of the division bell, have stopped...
AF User Guidelines
Deakins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2003, 11:57 AM   #94
VenomInMyVeins
AF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Denver (Hometown), Colorado
Posts: 315
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: z06 vs modena

a quote and a giant?
VenomInMyVeins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2003, 11:57 AM   #95
VenomInMyVeins
AF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Denver (Hometown), Colorado
Posts: 315
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: z06 vs modena

a quote and a giant? what the hell are you talking about? And really.. do I sound stupid? You're not even proving how I'm really that stupid... show me up hot shot
VenomInMyVeins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2003, 11:58 AM   #96
OoNismoO
AF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 265
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: Re: Re: z06 vs modena

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deakins
This deserves a quote and a giant
Are you really that stupid?
lol...
OoNismoO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2003, 12:09 PM   #97
Deakins
AF Enthusiast
 
Deakins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Aalesund
Posts: 1,879
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Re: Re: z06 vs modena

Quote:
Originally Posted by VenomInMyVeins
a quote and a giant? what the hell are you talking about? And really.. do I sound stupid? You're not even proving how I'm really that stupid... show me up hot shot
A giant :rolleyes:

Yes, you sound extremly stupid saying that.
Do you honestly believe car manufacturers stopped developing mid engine technology over 30 years ago?
__________________
The ringing of the division bell, have stopped...
AF User Guidelines
Deakins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2003, 02:17 PM   #98
syr74
AF Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 479
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: z06 vs modena

Actually, first of all I must be invsisible as I was the first one who brought up the problem with high engine placement in mid-engine cars. And second of all, that guy is right about the mid-engine/rear-drive design's problem with weight high up in the car. Yes, it is still an issue engineers must overcome, and it is most noticeable in cars with larger engines.

How do I know it's still an issue? When Ferrari came out with the 348 after the Testarossa based cars it was well known that part of the reason for losing the Boxer (horizontally opposed to those who don't know) based engine and going to a V-8 in the new mid engine cars was a problem in the balance of the larger Testarossa based designs.

This was largely due to the boxer engines top heavy design aggravating an existing short coming in typical mid engine/rear drive cars. Too much mass too high up. The smaller the engine the less aggravation this problem tends to pose. And, engines facing east-west in the car (horizontally mounted) tend to pose fewer problems concerning this issue as well.

Did you think Lambo's are so long because they just felt like doing it that way? No, it's because they were stretching out the drivetrain in order to keep the mass, and therefore the center of gravity as low as possible.

Ferrari does a better job at this now than most manufacturers, but they changed some things and compromised a bit with displacement in order to get there initially. The end product is fanastic, but as with all chassis designs this one has it's shortcomings.

The best engine/driveline packaging I have seen in a streetable mid engine car goes to the original and new Ford GT's (or GT40) in a tie. Why? Because, nobody else has put engines that large in a mid engine car and kept the car that short without facing the balance problems cars like the Testarossa and 512TR faced.
syr74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2003, 03:11 PM   #99
Deakins
AF Enthusiast
 
Deakins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Aalesund
Posts: 1,879
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Re: Re: z06 vs modena

Quote:
Originally Posted by syr74
Actually, first of all I must be invsisible as I was the first one who brought up the problem with high engine placement in mid-engine cars. And second of all, that guy is right about the mid-engine/rear-drive design's problem with weight high up in the car. Yes, it is still an issue engineers must overcome, and it is most noticeable in cars with larger engines.
It WAS a problem on some cars, yes. But there is a big defference between a Lamborghini Countach and a Ferrari 360.

Quote:
How do I know it's still an issue? When Ferrari came out with the 348 after the Testarossa based cars it was well known that part of the reason for losing the Boxer (horizontally opposed to those who don't know) based engine and going to a V-8 in the new mid engine cars was a problem in the balance of the larger Testarossa based designs.

This was largely due to the boxer engines top heavy design aggravating an existing short coming in typical mid engine/rear drive cars. Too much mass too high up. The smaller the engine the less aggravation this problem tends to pose. And, engines facing east-west in the car (horizontally mounted) tend to pose fewer problems concerning this issue as well.
The fact that older Ferraris had a problem with a high CG does not mean the 360 have one.

And I don't see why you are bringing Lamborghinis and twelve-cylinder Ferraris into this, you said it yourself, 'The smaller the engine the less aggravation this problem tends to pose.' You are compairing apples to oranges here.
__________________
The ringing of the division bell, have stopped...
AF User Guidelines
Deakins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2003, 03:27 PM   #100
syr74
AF Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 479
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: z06 vs modena

I am comparing apples to oranges, but only because much as the apple and the orange have things in common so do the 360 and mid engine cars with larger engines.

The 360 is still relatively top heavy in back by design, it is unavoidable. The problem just is not as aggravated as in the other designs mentioned exactly as I inferred in the above post.

I am certain that center of gravity on the 360 is great pretty good overall. Whenever you talk to someone that has driven any mid engine Ferrari I know of you will hear them almost always refer to the cars handling as at least a little "twitchy".

Matter of fact the first review I ever read regarding the new Ford GT they commented on how it was much more relaxed and not nearly as "nervous" (feel free to insert twitchy here as a substitute as desired) as the Modena. Anyone care to guess what that twitchiness stems from? Again, it is notable that the Ford GT seems to have largely avoided this issue, but it is always a packaging issue in these designs.

I am not slamming the 360 or mid engine cars. As a Ford guy I think the GT40 both old and new, but especially old, dang near hung the moon. I am just pointing out that every car design has it's drawbacks.
syr74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2003, 04:01 PM   #101
Deakins
AF Enthusiast
 
Deakins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Aalesund
Posts: 1,879
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Re: z06 vs modena

You rag on the 360 because of it's powertrain layout, but worship the GT when they infact have the exact same powertrain layout?
Doesn't that sound a wee bit odd to you?
__________________
The ringing of the division bell, have stopped...
AF User Guidelines
Deakins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2003, 04:02 PM   #102
OoNismoO
AF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 265
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
the 360 modena is definately not top heavy, where are you getting this info? are you just looking at the engine and assuming it is? those two red things that says ferrari on top are just manifolds, most of the weight is down where the cylinders are, and if you actually looked at one in person, they re like a foot below the manifold, thats pretty damn low if you ask me. with the manifold, its not even that high either.

Last edited by OoNismoO; 12-07-2003 at 04:38 PM.
OoNismoO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2003, 05:59 PM   #103
VenomInMyVeins
AF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Denver (Hometown), Colorado
Posts: 315
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: z06 vs modena

I don't remember where I got the info and I'll try to find it. but I read somewhere that the z06's center of gravity is about 4 inches lower than the 360's... I know. It's not a lot. The 360 modena is not top heavy by far. It's not going to flip going around a corner. I was just pointing out that the z06 has a better placement of the center of gravity, but obviously the 360 has better handling due to rotational inertia, suspension and I believe it has a wider wheel base too if I'm not mistaken.
VenomInMyVeins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2003, 08:41 PM   #104
Kurtdg19
AF Enthusiast
 
Kurtdg19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
Posts: 739
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via AIM to Kurtdg19
Although a cars CG is very important to the handling abilities of a vehicle, their are still many other factors implimented into handling.

Corning speed is very important when refering to a cars handling. I'm sure everyone already knows this but when your cornering (depending on how tight you are cornering) the car's weight will transfer from the inside tires to the outside tires. To calculte this transfer it would look somthing like this. Weight transfer = (lateral acceleration * weight * height of CG) / Track width. So you see their are many different factors other than CG. When you have an even weight distribution this weight transfer to the outside wheels will be more balanced to the front and back wheel which should give you a better rate to cornering. Weight transfer will also effect a tires grip.

When the load on the outside tire increases (when your cornering) the grip on the outside tire will also increase, but your overall tire grip will decrease cause you will loose more grip from your inside wheels then you will gain from your outside wheels since their will be less weight on them.

This means to increase a cars ability of cornering grip you must decrease the cars weight transfer to increase grip. You can achieve better weight transfer in many ways like; reducing the weight of your car, lowering your CG, you could also increase your track width, but this would also increase the weight of your car. Now this is a faily basic explaination because their are still more factors that contribute to a cars cornering abilities like a cars downforce, weight distribution, suspension geometry, drivetrain, etc.

Although a Z06 may have a better CG, it doesn't necessarily mean its going to have better handling. Just like a Modena weights less than the Z06 (which will help to limit weight transfer) but it still doesn't mean it will handle better.
Kurtdg19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2003, 10:44 PM   #105
OoNismoO
AF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 265
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: Re: z06 vs modena

Quote:
Originally Posted by VenomInMyVeins
I don't remember where I got the info and I'll try to find it. but I read somewhere that the z06's center of gravity is about 4 inches lower than the 360's... I know. It's not a lot. The 360 modena is not top heavy by far. It's not going to flip going around a corner. I was just pointing out that the z06 has a better placement of the center of gravity, but obviously the 360 has better handling due to rotational inertia, suspension and I believe it has a wider wheel base too if I'm not mistaken.
you mean the engine sits four inches lower? if it does, that doesnt always mean it has lower center of gravity, unless they proved it by measuring the whole car accurately. it might be true that the engine is placed better cause it sits lower, but they have two different engines, and may have not measured it accurately.
OoNismoO is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

POST REPLY TO THIS THREAD

Go Back   Automotive Forums .com Car Chat > Car Comparisons

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:47 AM.

Community Participation Guidelines | How to use your User Control Panel

Powered by: vBulletin | Copyright Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
 
 
no new posts