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Old 11-16-2004, 04:15 PM   #1
TRD2000
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What about the grief of the children?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...vestigation_dc

ok i was reading this and it occurred to me that many of the soldiers are trying to justify this particular marine's actions. Many site stressfull conditions and extenuating circumstances such as "maybe his two buddies were killed in fallujah".

I wonder if one of the children from fallujah, or afghanistan, or a bunch of other places, whose whole family was killed as a result of US bombing, then killed a US president, would their extenuating circumstances and grief be taken into account in their trial? or would it be deemed as politically motivated and not really their fault?

oh and before i get any more intelligent responses like "asshole" (that took a lot of thought Z28Josh), "Fuck You" Murco, or "Fuck Off" thegladhatter . I'm just asking a question, if you don't have anything worth saying remember... its better to shut the fuck up and let people think you're stupid than open your mouth (or your keyboard) and prove it.
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Old 11-16-2004, 04:26 PM   #2
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Re: What about the grief of the children?

Are they trying to justify his actions or are they trying to give reasons why it happened?
Under the right circumstance anyone can become a killer. He may have finally gotten to that point. I am sure it's tough over there. It would be an easy place to loose it and go on a rampage if you were so inclined.

Also, killing a president is different. Now if they killed a soldier over there.....Oh, never mind. That's happening already.
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Old 11-16-2004, 06:11 PM   #3
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Re: What about the grief of the children?

what you said is very true and i feel sorry for EVERYONE that is over there. It can't be easy, and would be difficult to remain rational. IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN JUSTIFY AND ESTABLISH CAUSE (WHY?).

My point was more aligned to questioning when peoples conditions and imposed stress started being taken into account.

I fail to see why killing a president is any different if it was their orders that made the bombs fall indiscriminately. In other countries presidents and heads of state have had to account for war crimes.

good point with the soldier though, people on both sides have been killed unarmed, and there is always people saying it is terrible and always people saying it is justified. I think if anything this demonstrates that to claim that any good/evil claims are complete crap.

along those lines... and your "thats happening already" lines. I wonder whether those same soldiers were as quick to look at "why it happened" when the WTC got hit? I am NOT justifying that nor would i, but i don't think people tend to look for why in instances like that, nor would those soldiers ask for the "terrorists" prior conditions to be taken into account, just their actions.
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Old 11-16-2004, 07:42 PM   #4
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Re: What about the grief of the children?

I would have shot the insurgent too. Two shots to the head," said Sergeant Nicholas Graham, 24, of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. "You can't trust these people. He should not be investigated. He did nothing wrong."

I would love to meet this bastard in person. The guy was unarmed and wounded, what possible threat can he be? These are the type of people that give the other marines a bad name.
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Old 11-16-2004, 08:32 PM   #5
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Re: What about the grief of the children?

Not saying that it shouldnt be investigated, as it should be, however you have to keep in mind that there have been instances in which people have been playing dead and had explosives concealed on them. That seems like a very plausable reason to me.
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Old 11-16-2004, 09:21 PM   #6
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Re: What about the grief of the children?

Trd have you seen the beheading video? Neither of the victims look armed or dangerous to me. However the US military seems to be held to a higher standard than other armies of the world. The french shooting into a crowd of unarmed protesters is considered less volatile than this, and I remember it being justified by Taranaki, saying that some of them were cannibals. There is no way to justify a soldiers actions of killing an unarmed enemy on the ground, but lets be honest about this, it has happened in every war that has been fought by man. Soldiers enduring constant fear of Death and possibly torture every day endure tremendous mental anguish. Some take it better than others, obviously this soldier couldn't take it anymore probably because of some of the things that had happend to him earlier in the day such as what Tehvisseeus's said.
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Old 11-16-2004, 09:36 PM   #7
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Re: What about the grief of the children?

NEITHER? there have been more than two beheadings, the majority have not been americans.

i don't hold the US military to a higher standard... it's just the US is the only developed nation invading other countries on a regular basis. The US military has also been caught out killing unarmed people a lot lately, most has been due to stupid use of firepower, showing no discretion. this however (unfortunately) shows something far more intimate.

now i don't think we should get into comparing numbers of unarmed people killed, especially civilians, because we have done that before and all know the results.

I put this thread in cause i was shocked by comments like the one Raz quoted.... that doesn't sound like the marines even care that the guy was unarmed. I know these things could happen by accident, particularly with the pressure, but when looking at it in hindsight with attitudes like that.... you wonder just how much of an "accident" it was and how much of a premedative culture exists within those troops.
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Old 11-16-2004, 09:42 PM   #8
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Re: What about the grief of the children?

If you were there, you might understand it. I once fired on five "unarmed" civilians, because it looked like they were either planting rice, or mines. I called for arty, but they delayed, wanting me to be sure of what they were doing. Luckily, a Korean army major came along and immediately called a Korean artillery unit to fire, which they did, relieving me of the duty. The "innocent civilians" were vaporized. Did I feel bad about it? NO. It's just the way it is. Shit happens. Save the touchy-feely stuff for campus. It doesn't work in the real world.
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Old 11-16-2004, 09:49 PM   #9
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Re: What about the grief of the children?

did it turn out that they were planting mines?
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Old 11-16-2004, 10:31 PM   #10
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Re: What about the grief of the children?

I never found out. It happens, and you don't dwell on it. I had never really given it that much thought until the subject came up here.
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Old 11-16-2004, 10:45 PM   #11
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Re: What about the grief of the children?

mmm... that WAS lucky then.

see when marines put so little thought into their actions, value other peoples lives so little....

how do you expect anybody to give them any respect?

and when america holds so few responsible for what is criminal activity, how do you expect the rest of the world to respect america?

buildings fall down...shit happens. don't get upset about it.
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Old 11-16-2004, 11:09 PM   #12
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Re: What about the grief of the children?

When the rest of the world hears shit like this and other instances like the Abu Gharib prison incident, the integrity of the US soldiers gets shot to hell. And now you wonder why people think that the marines are being blamed for civilian casualties.
There is your reason...not necessarily because of what happened, but more of what was said from the other marines. Its sad to see others favouring this type of behaviour.
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Old 11-17-2004, 12:20 AM   #13
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Re: Re: What about the grief of the children?

Quote:
Originally Posted by duckied
......and I remember it being justified by Taranaki, saying that some of them were cannibals.
WTF?
Hello...reality check here......

Go back and check.You are the first person to ever use the word 'cannibals' in this forum.If you intend quoting me as a source, please goet it right.
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Old 11-17-2004, 12:25 AM   #14
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Re: Re: What about the grief of the children?

Quote:
Originally Posted by duckied
Trd have you seen the beheading video? Neither of the victims look armed or dangerous to me. However the US military seems to be held to a higher standard than other armies of the world.
The US forces are there because Bush claims to be fighting terrorists.Of course the Marines are expected to behave to a higher standard than the terrorists, or the reason for their being there becomes transparently bogus.

It's bogus anyway,Bush just wants control of the oil, but at least do us the courtesy of pretending to give a damn about human rights.
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Old 11-17-2004, 12:29 AM   #15
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Re: Re: What about the grief of the children?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aloharocky
If you were there, you might understand it. I once fired on five "unarmed" civilians, because it looked like they were either planting rice, or mines. I called for arty, but they delayed, wanting me to be sure of what they were doing. Luckily, a Korean army major came along and immediately called a Korean artillery unit to fire, which they did, relieving me of the duty. The "innocent civilians" were vaporized. Did I feel bad about it? NO. It's just the way it is. Shit happens. Save the touchy-feely stuff for campus. It doesn't work in the real world.
America lost that war as well, didn't they?
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