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Forced Induction Discuss topics relating to turbochargers, superchargers, and nitrous oxide systems. |
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12-25-2005, 01:48 PM | #1 | |
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twincharging, twinturbo, fast spooling, high end power???
ok, i'm sure theres a few threads concerning these things but i only have specific questins and i can be searching for every little thing so here are my issues:
i read alot about twincharging and havent heard anything constructive, most of the technicians that specialize in forced induction say the tuning, the clutch system on the sc and the sequentials havent been perfected, even hks' system has it flaws. if anyone can convince me that twin charging is safe, easy, and the pain is worth the pleasure of (an unproven) significantly quicker 0-60 and horsepower crawling somewhere above 700hp... go head. i read about an sti that had a sc/tt setup but at 20psi it was only at about 480hp. i need to here good things before i consider it my next subject is on twin turboing my car. this i've fabricated before but i'm not worldly informed on the best turbos, i usuassaly use t3/t4s. but with hybrids and no name companys coming up from the bottom i'd like to know more from the enthusiast. money aside, tuning aside, knowledge aside: i need first the fastest spooling turbo and a second safe yet big turbo for high end boost i'm looking to get as much boost between 1400-7500rpms as possible, something with almost instant pull. i'm not looking for excessive boost. at 8-11psi i'll only be sitting at around 450hp but i want as instant boost as possible. i know you experts have your dream setups, let me know what you know - thanks in advance for all your help : adam |
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12-25-2005, 02:22 PM | #2 | |
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Re: twincharging, twinturbo, fast spooling, high end power???
with twin charing im assumeing you mean a supercharger feeding into a tubro feeding into the engine. It isnt so much that it spools faster, its that the supercharger takes care of boost untill the turbo spools, the drag of the supercharger is then removed and the turbo takes over boost completely.
Good in theory but im not sure it is worth the headaches. The other thing you may be talking about is sequincal turbocharging, such as on the RX-7 TT. This is where a smaller, faster spooling, turbo feeds into a larger turbo untill the larger turbo spools and the nthe waste gate for the 1st turbo is opened almost completely so that the 2nd, larger, turbo is taking care of all of the flow. This works great but has its HP limitations due to the fact thatthe 1st turbo is in the way of the 2nd turbo. This is why RX-7 Enthusiasts recocmend doing a true twin set up or a single large set up on the 13BTT once you pass around the 400hp mark. |
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12-26-2005, 12:59 PM | #3 | |
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Re: twincharging, twinturbo, fast spooling, high end power???
for twin charging you need to make sure that the turbo and supercharger provide the same ammount of flow. it really doesn't give you that much increase in performance unless you notice significant turbo lag, and even then, it could just be an improperly designed system. unles you're pushing something rediculus like 30psi it's not worth it.
As for the spooling effect, i think with the turbo feeding into the supercharger the supercharger does make the turbo spool up faster because it's sucking more than the turbo is providing so it's forcing the turbo to spin faster. The only practical application for a twincharging system i can think of would be for a diesel that is running alot of boost and wants to make use of the extra fuel that could be burnt while the turbo's spooling up. that's only if it's running alot of boost. Sequential setups aren't as feasable as they used to be because of ball bearing turbos. with ball bearings, the turbos spool alot faster and there isn't nearly as much lag as before. also, at high engine speeds, the sequential system isn't as efficient as one large turbo because of the restriction caused by the first one. the other issue is weight. all the extra piping and stuff does add weight, not much but more than a normal setup, and every bit counts when you're racing. if I were you, I'd go for the turbo that wil provide you with the ammount of boost you need without too much lag, if you plan on running 8-11psi you won't notice much lag unless you're starting from a dead stop or you downshift to accelerate, and even then, once you shift into a higher gear, there won't be any noticeable lag there. simplicity is key if you don't know exactly what you're doing or know the ins and outs of a turbo system, because if something goes wrong in a complex system, there's so much more to check as opposed to a simple system where it's only going to be a few things. |
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12-26-2005, 07:05 PM | #4 | |
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Yea dude go turbo, there is more power to be had and with the boost pressures you are looking for lag will be almost non exitant, and if you ever want to get rid of any trace of lag and get your RPMs up faster you can always add a small shot of NOS nothing big around a 35hp shot alot of street racers do that to insure they can spool their turbos as fast as they can hit a button. There are some nice bolt on supercharger kits out there but you would have to drop your CR to reach 11psi on most engie blocks, except those that were designed for it.. As far as your twin setup goes it has been done of course, and it does work well for drag racing, but by time you go through all the headaches of setting up th first street car to use it you could have made a bas a$$ turbo system that beats it every whichway you want to look at it. Anyway there is my have fun
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12-26-2005, 07:15 PM | #5 | |
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BTW you could make your dream car really quick, just go out and buy a MklV supra with twin sequential turbos (aka one spools up then the other one kicks in), they spool VERY quick, and I have seen them make 450hp on the stock turbos with some mods to the heads, exaust, boost controler, ECU, and intercooler. That is the fastest cheapest way to build the car you are describing.
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12-26-2005, 07:48 PM | #6 | ||
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Re: twincharging, twinturbo, fast spooling, high end power???
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12-26-2005, 07:50 PM | #7 | |
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Re: twincharging, twinturbo, fast spooling, high end power???
sorry, i had to do it. NOS is a company (Nitrous Oxide Systems) N2O, nitrous oxide, or nitrous, is the gas used for a performance increase in vehicles, and as laughing gas.
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12-26-2005, 10:43 PM | #8 | ||
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Re: Re: twincharging, twinturbo, fast spooling, high end power???
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12-27-2005, 05:31 PM | #9 | |
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Re: twincharging, twinturbo, fast spooling, high end power???
thanks to everyone for theyre input.
i have two cars right now that i'm in the process of boosting. my frst car is a 5spd. soon to be 6spd. 3.9l mustang. i was looking for a twin setup as described where one turbo spools quicker and the other takes over at higher rpms. twincharging is just a "hobby" of mine. i'm a technician and after seeing a few cars on the web like the sc/tt subaru sti and the one or two skyline engines i've seen with a similar setup i have become captivated by the idea of force fed turbos. i do have a good amount of time and money on my hands (sportscars are kindof my achilles heel.) i am also currently working on a 3rd gen. RX7 . i was delayed financially with the mustang but will soon go back to this to drop in a 20b motor and after i fabricate and swap - i'll be most likely boosting that aswell. i've never been to into "nos". i hate to eat my own words and forgive me if i'm wrong but i feel Nitrous oxide is cheap horsepower, little to no skill involved. as you said - alot of "street racers" do this- . the man who created this system is very brilliant but it just seems too unsafe for me. with the money and effort i put into every one of my cars i would never risk it. |
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12-27-2005, 06:07 PM | #10 | |
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Please whatever you do do not attempt to turbocharge the mustangs V6 bad engine to work with for 300+hp, good low end torque, good street engine, but not good at all for making the kind of hp the puts a grin on your face, save yourself alot of effort and alot of money in rare and custom parts, swap in a 4.6 or a 5.0, they have a MUCH better aftermarket and more displacement to boot I have seen people tune the V6 the most power I have ever seen one make reliably on pump gas is 250hp. The new 4.6s make 300hp stock, and an older model one will make between 225 and 260hp, much better place to start from especaly since the mustang was designed to run it the motor should not be that hard to swap.
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12-27-2005, 06:11 PM | #11 | |
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Re: twincharging, twinturbo, fast spooling, high end power???
BTW a 15% over baseline hp shot of NOS (yes I like calling it that) is considerd very safe if your fuel system is capable of handling it. Just my two cents
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12-27-2005, 09:37 PM | #12 | |
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Re: twincharging, twinturbo, fast spooling, high end power???
actually, the mustang's v6 is a very strong engine, they can handle alot of boost. there's a thread in the car videos forum about it, ill try to find it.
As for the twin charging, go for something that might be worth it, try it on a diesel engine. get a camaro or something and drop in a 5.9L cummins, 6.0L powerstroke, or 7.3L Powerstroke. up the boost alot (to, let's say 30-50psi), and add alot of fuel, the supercharger will keep it from running rich and the turbos will remove the pumping losses from the supercharger. |
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12-27-2005, 09:57 PM | #13 |
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Re: twincharging, twinturbo, fast spooling, high end power???
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12-29-2005, 06:49 AM | #14 | ||
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Re: twincharging, twinturbo, fast spooling, high end power???
Ive seen that mustang video. JUST STRAIGHT NUTTY :o
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12-29-2005, 03:30 PM | #15 | |
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Re: twincharging, twinturbo, fast spooling, high end power???
i agree. i think the early 2000 v6s are great motors to work with. i've had two since i was a teenager and both were strong. i've seen two twinturboed versions with little to no modification and they rip apart a 1/4 mile. mind you they never said how long it ran before it blew up but its fun while it lasts. i'm not going to be running crazy boost. just enough to get above 300hp and then the rest is bolt on mods and exterior work.
also i thought saleen had a version of the mid 90 3.8l that they twinturboed called the s351... could be mistaken as for a 10 second v6. thats insane - put a smile on my face |
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