HHO Hydrogen fuel suppliment for better MPH & savings

[MojoMan317717]

Sad Lumina Owner,

Did you ever succesfully install a hydroxy booster? I'm currently working on doing it with my '96 Lumina and just wanted to talk to someone with the same make and model of car. Apparently it's not very popular to do this to a Lumina.

[MT-2500]

Originally Posted by MojoMan317717

Sad Lumina Owner,

Did you ever succesfully install a hydroxy booster? I'm currently working on doing it with my '96 Lumina and just wanted to talk to someone with the same make and model of car. Apparently it's not very popular to do this to a Lumina.

That is kinda like the add on TV with the person going home with a new biggest and lastest and fastest computer in his back seat.
Poor person looks up at a new bill board on computers.

Yes they now have a newer bigger better and faster one just put out.

I have saw a lot of people spend there money on them.
But very few worked out and most was a waste of money and time.
Only ones I see anymore is scraps of leftovers parts to them left on the car.
Some blowed up and some burnt up and some froze up and some pitched in trash can.

Save you money and put it in a good tune up for better mileage.

[MojoMan317717]

Look dude, I'm not going to get into it with you, but it is very easy to install a hydroxy booster on a vehicle and see a 20-30% gain in fuel economy. People all over the USA are doing it. True, it's not for the faint of heart, or those looking for something plug-n-play, but with a little effort it can and does work, and I'm not selling anything, and neither are the many people I know who have done it. Yes there are failures, just like there are failures when guys try to install nitrous injection and don't know what they are doing. There are plenty of dumb people doing dumb things, but let's not let the minority speak for the majority. Hydroxy boosting absolutely definitively works when done right!

Why are you answering my post anyway?? Do you drive a Lumina with a 3.1 and a hydroxy booster?

[MT-2500]

Originally Posted by MojoMan317717

Look dude, I'm not going to get into it with you, but it is very easy to install a hydroxy booster on a vehicle and see a 20-30% gain in fuel economy. People all over the USA are doing it. True, it's not for the faint of heart, or those looking for something plug-n-play, but with a little effort it can and does work, and I'm not selling anything, and neither are the many people I know who have done it. Yes there are failures, just like there are failures when guys try to install nitrous injection and don't know what they are doing. There are plenty of dumb people doing dumb things, but let's not let the minority speak for the majority. Hydroxy boosting absolutely definitively works when done right!

Why are you answering my post anyway?? Do you drive a Lumina with a 3.1 and a hydroxy booster?

Any AF member has a right to answer a post!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was just trying to keep you and other people from throwing there money away.
Go ahead and do it.
But
Do not say I did not tell you about them.

Them things are the bigget money wasting scam since the nagnet on the fuel line and K&N filters and Bosch plugs.
Run a web search on how to install one.
Good Luck

[MojoMan317717]

No worries! I'll be laughing all the way to the bank with my 20-30% fuel economy savings!

It's amazing to me how ignorance continues to prevail on this subject. Just because it's not plug-n-play easy, doesn't mean it can't be done. In fact many many people are succesfully doing it. If you were willing to take your head out of your @#$% for 5 seconds you might have the time to genuinely research the topic for yourself. There is an entire community of open source hydroxy booster designers and users who are not trying to make any money, and are not scamming anyone, but are simply helping people learn how to design simple hydroxy boosters and successfully install them on their cars. Like the now famous Linux free software community which has helped thousands of people break free from the tyranny of Microsoft, these people are interested in the propogation of a technology that works modestly well now, and with more minds working on it every day, hopefully even better in the future.

I'm not talking about a car running on 100% water dude. This is just a small amount of hydroxy gas added to the fuel and air mixture to increase the efficiency of the fuel burn, and thus see a modest gain in fuel economy.

What's your deal anyway?? Are you an oil company executive or something??

[MT-2500]

I am a old tech/mechanic from Mo.
The Show Me State.

So far no one has showed me or proved very little gain in gas mileage with it.
With the newer computer controlled vehicles No gain at all.

I have saw many of them installed on cars and pickups and big transport trucks.
Like 2 six pack setups on the big boys.
But no gain in mileage or HP.

Most people around my neck of the woods have gave up on them and disconnected or removed there setups for them.

Good Luck with yours.

[ktetch]

this HHO stuff etc. just doesn't work. Do the basic chemistry. Most of those reference links are funny too, as they're taken out of context. Little things like the increase in efficiency when the hydrogen is added, makes no mention of an electrolysis device being run by the same engine. Reason is, because anyone with high-school chemistry knows that any energy benefit gained from the added Hydrogen, is more than offset by the power it takes to run it. It's a little thing we call "the law of thermodynamics"

They're a scam, to draw in the stupid, those that never bothered to actually study chemistry, but who are easily confused by a few buzzwords and sciencey-sounding lingo.

Tell you what, you post here a (stoichiometrically correct) equation for fuel usage in your engine with, and without your HHO system, I'll calculate the energy values, and we'll see just what the raw bond enthalpies tell us, ok? We won't even consider the parasitic loss due to component inefficiencies.

[MT-2500]

Right on. ktetch

I will second & third that.

[MojoMan317717]

I can't believe you geniuses are smart enough to be good mechanics, but can't understand the concept of hydroxy boosting.

It only takes 10-20 amps of power to run an HHO booster. Most alternators easily have that much spare energy available assuming the car is not running all the electronics simultaneously. The small amount of HHO (approximately 1 liter per minute) being produced by the booster enhances the air fuel mixture increasing the efficiency of the combustion, thus increasing both horespower and fuel economy.

Yes, you are correct about the loss of energy when transfering from one form to another, but what you fail to recognize is that there is a tremendous amount of petroleum fuel not being burned during every single power stroke of the engine. Said another way, the HHO booster is leveraging the fact that there is a great deal of potential energy being wasted in the form of unburned fuel during every power stroke. THIS FACT MUST BE UNDERSTOOD, AS THIS IS WHERE THE GAINS COME FROM!!!

If there were already a 100% fuel burn, the HHO would not offer nearly as much benefit, if any at all. However, the fact is that, depending on the vehicle, anywhere from 25-40% of the fuel goes unburned during each power stroke. The HHO is a catalyst to increase the combustion and more completely burn the fuel.

Look, I'm not selling anything, and I'm not promoting anyone who is. This hydroxy booster thing truly works. It's not plug and play, and if it's not done with caution, bad things can definitely happen, because HHO gas is extremely powerful stuff. One of the reasons there are so many horror stories out there is because lots of guys who know nothing about cars are excited about the possibilities this technology offers and they get in over their head trying to do things with their cars that they don't fully understand. That doesn't prove the technology is a failure. It merely proves that there are stupid people. The same stupid people who make mistakes doing ordinary things to their cars.

Rather than mocking and denying the facts, wouldn't it be a refreshing change if some guys like you with serious car knowledge would get on board and help people working with HHO boosting to tune their cars to operate successfully. If that happened, there would probably be less horror stories and more success stories, and then we could all buy less oil from frickin Saudi Arabia!!

Here is a link to an HHO forum with a results section. If you can muster up an open mind for 10 minutes, go check it out for yourself. Not everyone is getting great results (stupid or inexperienced), but many many are getting 20-30% fuel economy gains: http://www.fuel-saver.org/Forum-Results

[ktetch]

Originally Posted by MojoMan317717

I can't believe you geniuses are smart enough to be good mechanics, but can't understand the concept of hydroxy boosting.

It only takes 10-20 amps of power to run an HHO booster. Most alternators easily have that much spare energy available assuming the car is not running all the electronics simultaneously. The small amount of HHO (approximately 1 liter per minute) being produced by the booster enhances the air fuel mixture increasing the efficiency of the combustion, thus increasing both horespower and fuel economy.

Yes, you are correct about the loss of energy when transfering from one form to another, but what you fail to recognize is that there is a tremendous amount of petroleum fuel not being burned during every single power stroke of the engine. Said another way, the HHO booster is leveraging the fact that there is a great deal of potential energy being wasted in the form of unburned fuel during every power stroke. THIS FACT MUST BE UNDERSTOOD, AS THIS IS WHERE THE GAINS COME FROM!!!

If there were already a 100% fuel burn, the HHO would not offer nearly as much benefit, if any at all. However, the fact is that, depending on the vehicle, anywhere from 25-40% of the fuel goes unburned during each power stroke. The HHO is a catalyst to increase the combustion and more completely burn the fuel.

If you have 25-40% of your fuel unburnt, I can see why you're looking for an MPG improvement. me, I have about 1-2% tops (although I've not had emissions done on it in years, its not required in this part of Ga)

I think your engine is probably in desperate need of overhaul, since you've got MAJOR problems with unburnt fuel. you're running it WAYYY too rich.

BTW, I love your characterization of 'spare energy'. Sure the alternator has the capacity, but every alternator I've seen, becomes harder to turn the more charge-load is put on it. Easy test. next time you jump a car, listen to the engine note, as you connect the cable fully, your engine note will drop slightly, as the alternator is now working harder, taking more work to rotate it, and slowing the idle of the car a little (maybe 20-30rpm)

I think it's hilarious you think half your fuel's unburnt (why not just inject half as much fuel then?) and alternators take the same energy to rotate, if it's just providing engine running power, or 300W more for some bul***it bronws gas thing.

It really is a triumph of the complete ignorant.

BTW, I should point out, I've played with these kits before. me and somework friends tried one on a vehicle we were building. When the engine performed WORSE on our bench tests, we rejigged it to it's only useful job - making fuel for a flame-stack (actually, for muzzle-flash for a 1/2 scale WW2 tetrarch tank). Then we scrapped it and built a better one cheaper.

That's right, that kit you are so proud of, is only good for doing pyro special effects, badly

Your problemis, you've bought a scam product, filled with junk-facts, to a place where people know the actual facts. These sorts of places are death on scam-products.

[MojoMan317717]

You are just simply wrong if you believe that 98% of your fuel is actually being burned during combustion on the power stroke. The only way that is possible is with a tremendous amount of special modification.

IT IS FACT THAT ORDINARY VEHICLES WITHOUT SPECIAL MODIFICATION ARE ABSOLUTLEY NOT BURNING MORE THAN 75% OF THE FUEL DURING THE COMBUSTION PROCESS. Many burn even less. This is an empirical scientific fact. Do the research and you will come to this same conclusion.

This is where the disconnect is for you. In order to appreciate hydroxy boosting and it's benefits, you must understand the facts concerning unburnt fuel and the catalyst power of the HHO to increase combustion.

You are correct about the alternator, but the gains outweigh the insignificant increase in additional alternator load.

I don't want to question your skills, but there are many valid questions I might ask you concerning your "experiment" with an HHO booster. As I've indicated numerous times previously it's NOT PLUG AND PLAY, and requires a significant amount of skill to first build a decent HHO booster that runs cool and at low amperage (that's difficult in and of itself), then you need to correctly install it on the vehicle, and then modify the tuning of the vehicle to work with the new air/fuel ratio. It's not easy, and though I'm sure you are able to do it, maybe just maybe you didn't do everything right, and maybe you didn't give it a really good effort because you don't really believe in the technology.

This is my last post here, as I have a life and can't waste anymore time trying to convert the unbelieving. Bottom line is that many many people are successfully managing to see 20-30% fuel economy gains. Sure there are scammers out there, but I've been lucky enough to find an open source community of decent people committed to helping one another adapt this technology to their vehicles, and they aren't scammers. Their just regular red blooded Americans who have found a small way to save some money and help all of us need a little less of that damn Middle East oil.

Hydroxy boosting works, no matter what you have falsely believed.

[ktetch]

Originally Posted by MojoMan317717

You are just simply wrong if you believe that 98% of your fuel is actually being burned during combustion on the power stroke. The only way that is possible is with a tremendous amount of special modification.

IT IS FACT THAT ORDINARY VEHICLES WITHOUT SPECIAL MODIFICATION ARE ABSOLUTLEY NOT BURNING MORE THAN 75% OF THE FUEL DURING THE COMBUSTION PROCESS. Many burn even less. This is an empirical scientific fact. Do the research and you will come to this same conclusion.

Here's the thing. Go to your local emissions place, have it done on your car. Hell, go find out what your local regs are. Here's a hint - in the 70s, most places were 4% unburnt max. Now, you're more likely to find 1-2% max. My research is real simple to do, it just requires a simple emissions test. BTW, that special modification, that's called "engine design".

This is where the disconnect is for you. In order to appreciate hydroxy boosting and it's benefits, you must understand the facts concerning unburnt fuel and the catalyst power of the HHO to increase combustion.

Yes, you're right, I do have a disconnect. My disconnect is I can do basic chemistry, and I can read an emissions readout. What you claim, has no basis in reality.

You are correct about the alternator, but the gains outweigh the insignificant increase in additional alternator load.

You'd best go write your thesis up then. You should get a Nobel prize for breaking the 1st law of thermodynamics!

I don't want to question your skills, but there are many valid questions I might ask you concerning your "experiment" with an HHO booster. As I've indicated numersous times previously it's NOT PLUG AND PLAY, and requires a significant amount of skill to first build a decent HHO booster that runs cool and at low amperage (that's difficult in and of itself), then you need to correctly install it on the vehicle, and then modify the tuning of the vehicle to work with the new air/fuel ratio. It's not easy, and though I'm sure you are able to do it, maybe just maybe you didn't do everything right, and maybe you didn't give it a really good effort because you don't really believe in the technology.

No, I don't believe in it, then or now, as I did the maths then. My colleague did though (he's the mechanic) and so I went along with him. See, I've seen plenty of 'strange effects' that can sometimes defy straight maths (happens a lot in engineering, it's how the pair of us got our first few patents) so I still approach things with an open mind. We did EVERYTHING. We even made a completely new head for the engine, to allow for the faster flame propagation, and redesigned the carb to use a smaller amount of fuel (because despite what you claim, its not leaving 20% unburnt - we call that an over-rich mixture btw, you can smell it, and often, it doesn't burn, if it does, because of the incomplete combustion, you get lots of smoke)

This is my last post here, as I have a life and can't waste anymore time trying to convert the unbelieving. Bottom line is that many many people are successfully managing to see 20-30% fuel economy gains. Sure there are scammers out there, but I've been lucky enough to find an open source community of decent people committed to helping one another adapt this technology to their vehicles, and they aren't scammers. Their just regular red blooded Americans who have found a small way to save some money and help all of us need a little less of that damn Middle East oil.

Hydroxy boosting works, no matter what you have falsely believed.

Translation: This is my last post here, because no-one's falling for this scam, so it's off to try a new set of marks.
OR: I'm tired of these people calling me idiots, Why won't they take my claims at face value, and trust me?

Bottom line is that in EVERY SINGLE test using actual equipment, people have seen NO return. Why is it SO hard to see some nice professional results to back up these claims? instead we get Butt-dynometers, and advocates saying "yeah, after I dun spent $500 on this system, my fuel economy has gone right up" If it works, why can't ANYONE provide double-blind, independant run research proving it? I can provide independant reports that it doesn't. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/8313832.stm for instance.

Originally Posted by BBC

The BBC had a car fitted with a hydrofuel device by Hydrofuel-Systems.
It was taken to Millbrook Proving Ground in Bedfordshire, where a series of tests were carried out.

The conclusion of the government-approved tests was that the device had no effect at all.
Neil Fulton, manager powertrain engineering at Millbrook, said: "We have conducted tests, over many different driving conditions, in the laboratory. I'm afraid for fuel economy, there is no improvement."
When confronted with the evidence, Steven Cordner of Hydro-Fuel Systems claimed the system worked but admitted he had no proof to show us. He said they had stopped selling the product.
The devices are still widely available on the internet, with prices ranging from £100 to £500.
Nick Collings of Cambridge University, has studied the claims made for the devices and concluded that they cannot work. In fact he says they make cars on average 2% less efficient.
"With these devices, it takes more gasoline to generate the electrical energy needed to create the hydrogen, than it can contribute back to the engine."

Those fuel economy savings? They're caused by people not driving like such a dick after they've spent all this money. Learning to drive smoothly and efficiently can save you 50% in many cases. Sorry I gotta quote this again too

I've been lucky enough to find an open source community of decent people committed to helping one another adapt this technology to their vehicles, and they aren't scammers. Their just regular red blooded Americans who have found a small way to save some money and help all of us need a little less of that damn Middle East oil.

They're not scammers, no. they're the scammed. They're people who believe lies, paid out money and are now passionate about justifying that money, because they're too proud to admit they've been scammed. It's how the best scams work. They feed on pride and ignorance. And i'm sorry, but "red blooded Americans" are, as a general rule, dumb as posts. We need a strong science education program in the US, strike that, we need a strong education program PERIOD, because US education is falling WAY behind the rest of the world. Mojoman is a prime example.

Browns Gas/HHO - the modern day version of Radium toothpaste.

[MT-2500]

Originally Posted by MojoMan317717

Look dude, I'm not going to get into it with you, but it is very easy to install a hydroxy booster on a vehicle and see a 20-30% gain in fuel economy. People all over the USA are doing it. True, it's not for the faint of heart, or those looking for something plug-n-play, but with a little effort it can and does work, and I'm not selling anything, and neither are the many people I know who have done it. Yes there are failures, just like there are failures when guys try to install nitrous injection and don't know what they are doing. There are plenty of dumb people doing dumb things, but let's not let the minority speak for the majority. Hydroxy boosting absolutely definitively works when done right!

Why are you answering my post anyway?? Do you drive a Lumina with a 3.1 and a hydroxy booster?

As said I am from mo.
So you are going to have to show me before I believe a word of it.
Like put up or shut uptime.

How many have you installed?
Or how much fuel savings are you geting from one.
Or do you actually know of anyone that has installed any and had any good results?
That does not include the web blow hards.

[ktetch]

Originally Posted by MojoMan317717

Look dude, I'm not going to get into it with you, but it is very easy to install a hydroxy booster on a vehicle and see a 20-30% gain in fuel economy. People all over the USA are doing it. True, it's not for the faint of heart, or those looking for something plug-n-play, but with a little effort it can and does work, and I'm not selling anything, and neither are the many people I know who have done it. Yes there are failures, just like there are failures when guys try to install nitrous injection and don't know what they are doing. There are plenty of dumb people doing dumb things, but let's not let the minority speak for the majority. Hydroxy boosting absolutely definitively works when done right!

Why are you answering my post anyway?? Do you drive a Lumina with a 3.1 and a hydroxy booster?

Originally Posted by MojoMan317717

No worries! I'll be laughing all the way to the bank with my 20-30% fuel economy savings!

It's amazing to me how ignorance continues to prevail on this subject. Just because it's not plug-n-play easy, doesn't mean it can't be done. In fact many many people are succesfully doing it. If you were willing to take your head out of your @#$% for 5 seconds you might have the time to genuinely research the topic for yourself. There is an entire community of open source hydroxy booster designers and users who are not trying to make any money, and are not scamming anyone, but are simply helping people learn how to design simple hydroxy boosters and successfully install them on their cars. Like the now famous Linux free software community which has helped thousands of people break free from the tyranny of Microsoft, these people are interested in the propogation of a technology that works modestly well now, and with more minds working on it every day, hopefully even better in the future.

I'm not talking about a car running on 100% water dude. This is just a small amount of hydroxy gas added to the fuel and air mixture to increase the efficiency of the fuel burn, and thus see a modest gain in fuel economy.

What's your deal anyway?? Are you an oil company executive or something??

Originally Posted by MojoMan317717

I can't believe you geniuses are smart enough to be good mechanics, but can't understand the concept of hydroxy boosting.

It only takes 10-20 amps of power to run an HHO booster. Most alternators easily have that much spare energy available assuming the car is not running all the electronics simultaneously. The small amount of HHO (approximately 1 liter per minute) being produced by the booster enhances the air fuel mixture increasing the efficiency of the combustion, thus increasing both horespower and fuel economy.

Yes, you are correct about the loss of energy when transfering from one form to another, but what you fail to recognize is that there is a tremendous amount of petroleum fuel not being burned during every single power stroke of the engine. Said another way, the HHO booster is leveraging the fact that there is a great deal of potential energy being wasted in the form of unburned fuel during every power stroke. THIS FACT MUST BE UNDERSTOOD, AS THIS IS WHERE THE GAINS COME FROM!!!

If there were already a 100% fuel burn, the HHO would not offer nearly as much benefit, if any at all. However, the fact is that, depending on the vehicle, anywhere from 25-40% of the fuel goes unburned during each power stroke. The HHO is a catalyst to increase the combustion and more completely burn the fuel.

Look, I'm not selling anything, and I'm not promoting anyone who is. This hydroxy booster thing truly works. It's not plug and play, and if it's not done with caution, bad things can definitely happen, because HHO gas is extremely powerful stuff. One of the reasons there are so many horror stories out there is because lots of guys who know nothing about cars are excited about the possibilities this technology offers and they get in over their head trying to do things with their cars that they don't fully understand. That doesn't prove the technology is a failure. It merely proves that there are stupid people. The same stupid people who make mistakes doing ordinary things to their cars.

Rather than mocking and denying the facts, wouldn't it be a refreshing change if some guys like you with serious car knowledge would get on board and help people working with HHO boosting to tune their cars to operate successfully. If that happened, there would probably be less horror stories and more success stories, and then we could all buy less oil from frickin Saudi Arabia!!

Here is a link to an HHO forum with a results section. If you can muster up an open mind for 10 minutes, go check it out for yourself. Not everyone is getting great results (stupid or inexperienced), but many many are getting 20-30% fuel economy gains: http://www.fuel-saver.org/Forum-Results

Originally Posted by MojoMan317717

I don't want to question your skills, but there are many valid questions I might ask you concerning your "experiment" with an HHO booster. As I've indicated numerous times previously it's NOT PLUG AND PLAY, and requires a significant amount of skill to first build a decent HHO booster that runs cool and at low amperage (that's difficult in and of itself), then you need to correctly install it on the vehicle, and then modify the tuning of the vehicle to work with the new air/fuel ratio. It's not easy, and though I'm sure you are able to do it, maybe just maybe you didn't do everything right, and maybe you didn't give it a really good effort because you don't really believe in the technology.

This is my last post here, as I have a life and can't waste anymore time trying to convert the unbelieving. Bottom line is that many many people are successfully managing to see 20-30% fuel economy gains. Sure there are scammers out there, but I've been lucky enough to find an open source community of decent people committed to helping one another adapt this technology to their vehicles, and they aren't scammers. Their just regular red blooded Americans who have found a small way to save some money and help all of us need a little less of that damn Middle East oil.

Hydroxy boosting works, no matter what you have falsely believed.

BTW, you got to love how the story changed. (Thanks MT-2500 for highlighting the older post)

First it's easy, later it's hard and complex to do it right. Then we'll see a modest increase in fuel economy, which turns out to be 20-30%

BTW, I checked out the forum mentioned.
There are three different results sets. One group just seems to post results with nothing to back them. Another posts all sorts of technical details, and sees no difference :-)

The third is the most fun.
Example

RE: Post Your Results
2001 Saturn 5 speed 1.9 L
62580 miles
dual map enhancer ( city / hwy )
15 plate ss hho generator
Scan gauge for readings
Hypermile every chance like 38 psi in tires /coast whenever possible etc
used to get 30 MPG in city stock... now avg over 60 MPG... hard to belive but the scan gauge does not lie

Now, he's gone from 30mpg normal, to 60mpg when hypermileing, gee what a surprise. nothing to do with the crap he's bolted on his engine at all. It's the same for all the results I'd guess. They've spent this money on this crap and they'll DAMNED better get some results, even if they've had to change their driving style to get it.

Morons...

Edited to add:
I used to work with some of the guys on Mythbusters (on the show Battlebots) I'm going to drop them a line about this stuff, see if I can push Grant or Jamie into looking into it. I know they did a pure hydrogen fuel-cell in 06, but not a HHO additive mix thing.

[MT-2500]

Originally Posted by ktetch

BTW, you got to love how the story changed. (Thanks MT-2500 for highlighting the older post)

First it's easy, later it's hard and complex to do it right. Then we'll see a modest increase in fuel economy, which turns out to be 20-30%

BTW, I checked out the forum mentioned.
There are three different results sets. One group just seems to post results with nothing to back them. Another posts all sorts of technical details, and sees no difference :-)

The third is the most fun.
Example

Now, he's gone from 30mpg normal, to 60mpg when hypermileing, gee what a surprise. nothing to do with the crap he's bolted on his engine at all. It's the same for all the results I'd guess. They've spent this money on this crap and they'll DAMNED better get some results, even if they've had to change their driving style to get it.

Morons...

Edited to add:
I used to work with some of the guys on Mythbusters (on the show Battlebots) I'm going to drop them a line about this stuff, see if I can push Grant or Jamie into looking into it. I know they did a pure hydrogen fuel-cell in 06, but not a HHO additive mix thing.

You are welcome.
In N. east mo Mark twain land several years ago the crazy craze went threw here.

Water bottles on almost every other car and truck and my neighbors transport trucks with twin 6 packs bottle generators on several of them.

Now almost every on that had them are removed or disconnected.

The only person besides MojoMan317717 even asking about one was my brother in law.
But that figures about right for him to try one.