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Old 06-09-2003, 04:45 AM   #16
crayzayjay
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I understand you fine, I just disagree in that I think it can be worth saving for a company. People buy SEAT’s because they know VW builds them, why wouldn’t people buy a BMW Lancia?
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Old 06-09-2003, 09:24 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by crayzayjay
I understand you fine, I just disagree in that I think it can be worth saving for a company. People buy SEAT’s because they know VW builds them, why wouldn’t people buy a BMW Lancia?
Yes...that makes sense in the long run. But how much would it cost to bring Lancia into the fold? Add to that the fact that Lancia's have been primarily front-wheel drive for the past thirty years or so. BMW would need to retool all of Lancia's products to have any synergies between the currently front-drive Lancias and the mostly rear-drive BMWs. Once you have a rear-wheel drive Lancia lineup, how much less expensive than the equivalent BMWs would the Lancias be priced? The Ypsilon would be priced about the same as the Mini, the other Lancia products would rival 3- and (possibly) 5-series models in pricing. You want to make Lancia an entry-level brand?

With SEAT, the vehicle has always been positioned as a step (or half step) below Volkswagen. SEAT was always a cheap car, Lancia has always had a price premium over, say, Fiat.

Lancia would gain greatly from BMW's image. But you have to position the brand so it doesn't eat into BMW's sales. Haven't you heard about the erosion of Volkswagen sales due to the fact that SEATs and Skodas are believed to be (and rightfully so) bargain-priced Volkswagens?
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Old 06-09-2003, 09:36 AM   #18
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Oh no, the Ypsilon would undercut the Mini, and the equivalents to the 3 and 5 series would have to come at a healthy discount, going head to head with Alfa, or maybe starting at a slight discount to A-R. If the cars are cheaper, and better to drive than the equivalent Alfas, with Lancia benefiting from the BMW association, why wouldn’t people lap them up? Lancia would remain above Fiat pricing, as it always has. BMW is one of the most profitable companies in the industry, it can afford to give away some of its profit margin to drive volumes. Besides, synergies would ultimately be achieved with Lancia, and profitability would therefore not take such a big hit. Of course, you hit the nail on the head with the possibility of cannibalisation of sales, but if the products are differentiated, than I don’t see the problem. The problem with seats and vw’s is that they look too damn similar and that its too easy to tell that its exactly the same car! If bmw make the Lancia look Italian, unlike VW making SEAT looking utterly un-latin, there would be less of a problem. Im not saying its easy, im just saying its possible.
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Old 06-10-2003, 08:50 AM   #19
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Anything's possible...I just don't realistically see the benefit to BMW. The additional incremental sales (after dealing with the internal sales cannibalization) wouldn't be enough to provide BMW with a significant return on its investment. One of the reasons why BMW makes such good profits is that they don't make questionable purchases (or they learn from their mistakes, such as Rover). Rolls-Royce was a bargain. Mini was expensive (when you factor in the costs of buying and supporting Rover for so long) but they're getting marketing benefits from it. I just don't see Lancia providing anything BMW couldn't do themselves or do better with another company.
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Old 06-10-2003, 09:02 AM   #20
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I think its difficult to speculate what the return on investment would be, or that it would automatically be inadequate, remember the cost of development for these Lancia’s may not be so great. If they take on the company without a lot of debt, it would come down simply to how many cars are sold, and I think cannibalisation would be a minor issue. Lancia wouldn’t compete directly with BMW; Alfa doesn’t steal that many sales from BMW. The benefit to BMW is scale, it craves, no - needs it - and yes, there may be better companies to provide BMW with scale, but none of them are for sale.
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Old 06-10-2003, 02:07 PM   #21
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NONONONONO! It mustn't happen, never!
Lancia is an Italian factory and Italian must remain, the only thing to change is re-make the HF racing team!!
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Old 06-10-2003, 06:29 PM   #22
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I'm agree with you Luca. But alas, the current health of Lancia is not very good. And I personnally would prefer to see Lancia bought buy BMW than by GM !
Look at the V6 Alfa Romeo which is going to disapear ! Bad thing ! And Alfa is selling well in Europe ! So think to Lancia which is not selling well
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Old 06-11-2003, 05:46 AM   #23
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I feel the same Luka, in a perfect world, Lancia would survive on its own and build fantastic cars again! But the situation today is dire, and it could do a lot worse than being taken over by BMW. As mentioned, GM
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Old 06-11-2003, 01:45 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by crayzayjay
...Lancia wouldn’t compete directly with BMW; Alfa doesn’t steal that many sales from BMW....
No, Alfa Romeo probably doesn't steal that many sales from BMW. But you have to look at how different Alfa Romeo is from BMW (and, because of it, how different their buyers are). Alfa Romeo has a fleet of front-wheel drive cars where BMW prides itself on rear-wheel drive. Alfa Romeo's most powerful engine pales in compasion to the mid-level BMW engines. I wouldn't expect the current Alfa Romeo lineup to steal sales from BMW.

Now, if you were to put Lancia on BMW platforms, using BMW engines, and making the rear-wheel drive, Lancia would (most likely) steal sales from BMW.
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Old 06-11-2003, 02:36 PM   #25
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I beg to differ; Alfa engines do compare, and very well too... the 2.5 and 3.2 V6's are fantastic engines!

FWD / RWD has something to do with it, but to be honest i dont think that many people care / know about this when purchasing a car. I think image is the primary factor, at least i can guarantee thats the truth here in the UK. My friend has an A3. Does he know if its FWD, or RWD? No, he just knows its an Audi. Thats all that counts for him, and many others like him. If Lancia's image can be fixed, which i think it can (with the help of a BMW association and sexy Italian styling), they're in with a shot.

Over to you
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Old 06-11-2003, 10:46 PM   #26
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In the States, BMW definitely sells on the name and badge. But a very high percentage of American BMW buyers actually know that it's RWD and chose it for that quality. I can't vouch for Europeans, but I've got to guess that a significant number of BMW buyers there know it as well.
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Old 06-12-2003, 01:10 AM   #27
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We just have to remember here that the average car buyer is much different from the average enthusiast- not many buyers are picky about FWD or RWD- many buyers do find AWD an advantage over either- but to most people it's just two-wheel-drive.


Most people thier whole lives want a car that will get them there- one with a good reliability record (ie not LAncia)- not so ugly that they'll look individualistic - nothing exciting- as the saying goes- "Why buy something fast when you can't use it?" However then comes the mid-life crisis or supposed "Small penis syndrome" and the buyers want a badge- it doesn't matter if it's FWD or RWD or whatever- they just want that badge. Why do you think Opel's are such big sellers????


So whether Lancia is F or R WD doesn't matter- the new car buyer doesn't care- if you could price them BELOW BMW then I'm sure it wouldn't eat into sales- but for BMW it is a bad business venture- look what happened to Rover.......The 45 and 25 are in a way like the Delta (RIP) and Y- they were also hopelessly outdated- overpriced for what they were- the public never bought them- Rover and MG got sold for 10 pounds- Lancia is the Italian Rover for sure- I can make little contrasts between the brands- Lancia is Rover 10 years ago if you ask me.
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Old 06-12-2003, 07:34 AM   #28
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RWD : it makes me laugh ! Alfa stopped the RWD for long because it's less efficient and doesn't bring many things. BMW has to put ESP, EBD, etc. etc. etc. to keep their cars on the road just because of FWD handles better. What is the advantage of a RWD ? when you've a very powerfull engine, it's maybe necessarly but look at an Alfa GTA : it's a FWD and it compete with any BMW. Because it's well designed (handling).
Plus : in the USA, Hudson, you seem to say that Americans think that it's important as American people are the slowest on our earth when they're drinving on boring and huge roads....
In Europe many buyers (of BMW or other makes) don't care if their cars are FWD or RWD. "Worse", many people do prefer FWD ! Do you prefer a RWD as a Firebird or something like that or a car which handles well as an European car (not all but many) ? !
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Old 06-12-2003, 10:04 AM   #29
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I'm not defending the desire for rear-wheel drive, I'm just stating what I've seen. Because of the climate in which I live, I have a front-wheel drive car and when people ask my opinions about cars, I recommend front-wheel drive or all-wheel drive...unless they live in warmer climates.

Unlike the average car buyers, Americans (and, I must assume, Europeans) who buy BMWs, for the most part, know that their car is rear-wheel drive...or they like the handling properties associated with rear-wheel drive without actually knowing where it comes from.

Rear-wheel drive does have its benefits, especially when it comes to higher powered engines. It has been found that 300hp is about the limit for a front-wheel drive car to be managable. Rear-wheel drive has drawbacks in less than perfect road conditions.

A rear-wheel drive BMW-based Lancia would steal sales from the BMW brand.

Comparing Rover in 1993 to Lancia today is not a good comparison. While Rover cars were Honda based at the time, Rover had its own engines, plants, and vehicles (Land Rover, Mini) as well as a number of dormant brand names with some value. Lancia has Fiat engines, platforms, and plants. If someone were to buy Lancia, perhaps Fiat could sell a plant and, maybe, the Innocenti brand. How much do you think that would be worth? Would it provide enough money to Fiat? Would BMW see any benefit? Would it cost BMW more in the mid-term to earn its investment back? Would Lancia drag down BMW's profit margins?

With the revived Mini brand, wouldn't BMW more wisely invest its money in expanding the English brand rather than reviving an Italian brand that's already on life-support?
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Old 06-12-2003, 10:47 AM   #30
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Stef, RWD is much better than FWD. Youre crazy!!

Hudson>


Some people who buy BMW's know its RWD, but i imagine those people buying cars with a lesser focus on dynamics dont usually have a clue

And sometimes it doesnt hurt to give away some margin to grow revenue
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