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Old 12-03-2006, 10:17 PM   #61
JustSayGo
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Re: The Flight of the PHOENIX !

OK No more tires from me. 5W-30 motor oil should help MPG especially in cold weather. Cast iron from the rings and cylinder walls, and unburned fuel all make motor oil very dark. The oil is used. I think a 195 degree t-stat will help MPG and evaporate some of the unburned fuel byproducts from the motor oil and keep the engine cleaner on the inside. Maybe not enough to measure.
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Old 12-04-2006, 08:10 AM   #62
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Re: The Flight of the PHOENIX !

Earlier on, I had asked a question about the alloy composition of Rings - no answers.

Which is harder - the Rings or the Cylinder Walls?

When I changed them, my Rings were tougher than Hell!

I had thought they would be brittle (don't know why I had that notion!?).
The old Rings were tough and would not break when bent! Hard but flexible!

So what kind of Alloy are Rings made from?

Are the cylinder walls made of good metal compared to the Rings?

Where is this Molybdenum in the used oil coming from?

And the Aluminum....! No wearing metal parts are made of Aluminum - it is way,
way, way too soft for moving parts - just structural parts.....

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Old 12-04-2006, 05:58 PM   #63
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Re: The Flight of the PHOENIX !

The pistons are aluminum. Did you get an oil analysis? There should be a legend on the report that explains. Part of the fee for the service allows the owner to contact a lab tech.

Some rings are cast iron, some are moly alloy, and some are chrome. The bearings are made of a variety of metals, tri-metal (babbitt, copper, and tin or steel), or solid aluminum. And ALECULAR SI bearings. The soft material is what touches the metal parts.

http://www.kingbearings.com/oem.html

Your cylinder head is aluminum with the cams turning in it. Rings and cylinder walls wear. There are different mixtures of iron for blocks and different types of rings. Rings must be harder considering the narrow surface that runs against much longer cylinder surface.

Most wearing parts are aluminum or use soft aluminum bearings. Very few parts are run metal against metal.

Cams and lifters or rockers are steel against steel. Rings are iron against iron. Timing chains are steel and at least one steel sprocket.
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Old 12-04-2006, 07:41 PM   #64
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Only The Vardar & The Elder Dwarves Know For Sure, Doc!

When I changed them, my Rings were tougher than Hell!

I had thought they would be brittle (don't know why I had that notion!?).
The old Rings were tough and would not break when bent! Hard but flexible!

So what kind of Alloy are Rings made from?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

oK, SILLY REFERENCES ASIDE,

Add Vanadium & manganese to your hardness & ductilly alloy list for rings.
Call Gandalf


thx
reg
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Old 12-04-2006, 09:22 PM   #65
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Re: The Flight of the PHOENIX !

JSG - can you tell me where Aluminum is scraping against Aluminum or anything else?

Other than as a portion of the bearing metal (from your web link reference - thanks!) alloy, I
cannot see where Aluminum should wind up in the oil.

Every surface where a metal is moving against another metal is a bearing or
ring situation.

The camshaft bearings are embedded in Aluminum and just hold the bearings in place.
The camshaft (made of steel) rotates within those bearings.

The only use for Aluminum is to encase some other metal that moves against a third metal.

If Aluminum were ever to move against itself or any other metal, it would wear away
instantly! Soft as butter! It would spall.....

The Aluminum piston has embedded rings doing the scraping of Iron cylinder walls.
In all cases the Aluminum does not touch any moving body other than to just
hold it in place.

Can you name one place in the engine where Aluminum rotates or scrapes against
itself of another metal?

Except perhaps for the empty Beer Cans rolling around behind the driver's seat...

DoctorBill

PS - Remember those oil analyses web links someone gave us about a month or two ago?
Those analyses are what I remember reading - they ran one car under different circumstances
and finally had to give up for lack of time and money....
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Old 12-04-2006, 09:40 PM   #66
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Re: The Flight of the PHOENIX !

Reg Saretsky - "oK, SILLY REFERENCES ASIDE"

The "silly" references, if I understand your meaning, are what give you credence.

Otherwise it is just your word and opinion.

Where did you get Vanadium & manganese at? Do you have some web link or
printed material to substanciate your claim? Ever been in court?

You gotta prove your claims.

Not that I don't believe you. There are probably 10,000 different formulas of
Steel out there!

I am not disputing the metals that were in those oil analyses...just wondering
what "things" they came from.

I can understand all of them except for Aluminum.

Now if Aluminum is a component of the softer Bearings, then OK!

They probably add the Aluminum to the bearing metal alloy in order to make it soft!

After all, bearing are supposed to wear as opposed to the rotating shaft
component that is difficult and expensive to replace.


BTW - do you have Gandolf's address? I'd like to ask him several thousand questions....

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Old 12-04-2006, 10:10 PM   #67
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Re: The Flight of the PHOENIX !

As I wrote previously, I changed the Oil and Filter (FRAM) after 700 miles on the
New Rings in the phoenix yesterday.

I swear to you, today the engine runs quieter and seems to have more power!

Maybe I am just wishful thinking, but even my daughter (who I drive to school)
said that it sounded quieter!

Is that possible?

Damn! I love this little shit car!

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Old 12-04-2006, 10:48 PM   #68
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Re: The Flight of the PHOENIX !

the aluminum is probably off the piston skirts, they rub against the cyl walls as the pistons go up and down, the rings just seal the compression in, they don't keep the piston from rocking as the crank goes around. also there are no bearings for the camshaft, it just turns inside the aluminum holders in the head
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Old 12-05-2006, 01:04 AM   #69
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Re: The Flight of the PHOENIX !

Aluminum within normal parameters is from the piston skirts as crvette69 stated. If there were a huge amount it would be from something abnormal like a piston the grew larger from heat and didn't have enough clearance causing it to seize against the cylinder wall or in the case of engines with timing chains that are hitting the aluminum front cover. Depends on what type of engine and it's characteristics on where you would make an educated guess if there is a problem and where the problem might be.

The soft aluminum parts do not wear (much at all) as the steel turns against them because of the oil that washes between the parts keeping them cool.

As crvette69 wrote, there are no camshaft bearings other than the aluminum cylinder head.

High performance and heavy duty bearings are (have been) solid aluminum. Bearings were never steel. The first layer of crankshaft bearings that contact the metal crankshaft first used to be babbitt which is very soft lead, much softer than the next layer of copper. The aluminum is not mixed with the other metals. They are layers. I think most newer engines (that probably includes your 93 Metro) are using solid aluminum bearings. The manufactures must save millions of dollars on solid compared to tri layer bearings.

Oil analysis measures very small amounts. Vehicles running near the coast or near salt flats show more sodium than those traveling inland. Glycol is from anti-freeze and should not be present. Silica is from dirt as in silica sand that for the most part made it's way through the air filter, past the rings, and into the oil.

Molybdenum could be from moly piston rings but I think it is as someone posted before, part of the additive package and is measured to determine depletion of the additives. Ask the lab tech for a correct answer.
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Old 12-05-2006, 03:38 AM   #70
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Re: The Flight of the PHOENIX !

DOCTORBILL,

Lend me your ear.

1.) Stop using Fram oil filters, they are absolutely the worst constructed oil filter in the world. Use anything else but. The cardboard endcaps inside won't seal against the antidrainback valve and will cause dry startups. There are much better filters for cheaper money out there. And please don't say you have been using them for years and therefore they are ok, because theat is wrong, I have personally witnessed 4 Fram failures and it ain't pretty. Plus Frams have 1/2 the filter media as any other filter, which is probably why your oil was dirty prematurely.

2.) Check you tire pressure cold, never warm, the rated is for a cold tire, common mistake made.

3.) Reinstall the other valves you took off the engine. They are there for a purpose and you will be doing nothing but harm by leaving them off.

4.) Replace the O2 sensor and you will get even better economy.

5.) Grinding manual gear box is from you manual transmission fluid needing to be changed. Check the owners manual for what is in it and you can swap in some new fluid in there and enjoy a slick running gearbox.
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Old 12-05-2006, 06:51 PM   #71
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Re: The Flight of the PHOENIX !

Fleetgaurd makes good filters. If oil analysis shows the quality of the oil is good, better may not be an issue. Several engines can be noisy on start up when Fram filters are used because the oil drains back to the pan.

Wix is also a better filter. I think all oil filters pass the SAE tests.

Have you ever seen a Frantz filter? They keep oil looking really clean. Clean looking oil is not everything. Filters that keep oil looking really clean also remove some of the additive package from the oil, or so I have been told by more than one reliable source. The polymers that create multi-viscosity. Seems believable to me.

You must have some thick gear oil in your transmission. My transmission shifts really smooth after flushing the nasty smelling gear oil out and filling with synthetic motor oil. Thinner oil will also improve fuel mileage. I have done this on many different transmissions, never a Metro. Chrysler muscle car transmissions came with type A fluid. They don't shift so well with SAE 90.
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Old 12-05-2006, 07:46 PM   #72
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Re: The Flight of the PHOENIX !

Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away I bought three quarts of Valvoline Durablend
(Synthetic Blend) SAE 80w-90 for The Phoenix, but never put it in as it
was not running then!

Now, I will drain it this week while the transmission is hot and add the Valvoline.

The Phoenix is a '93 and I'll bet the transmission fluid has never been changed....

I found a '95 Geo Metro 1.0 L Tachometer Instrument Cluster at a local wrecking
yard for $55 total + tax....

They have to order it from some where else, so that will be in next week!

Yikes! I'll have a Taco-meter in The Phoenix...!

Hot Damn!

DoctorBill

PS - now if I can just find out what that damned rattle is in the right back end of The Phoenix,
she will be all set....she's had it since I bought her. (?)

If yous guys would take your Filter Discussion to my other thread, you'd see
all sorts of information about them. Nice link was given by a participant.

Wal-Mart apparently sells Filters made by Bosch which are said to be good
and cheap!
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Old 12-05-2006, 11:28 PM   #73
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Re: The Flight of the PHOENIX !

Bill,
Your Metro transaxle needs an API GL-4 gear lube, SAE 75W-90 weight.
I researched this exhaustively recently when I found that the '92 Metro Owner's Manual and Service Book said two different things. I think one says GL-4 and one says GL-5 (Thank you, GM tech. service!).
I had what I was pretty sure were bad synchronizers on my Metro, at 165,000 miles. But I saw that people were sometimes able to improve synchro performance with good lube. Anyway, I spent quite a few hours on the internet and talking to oil company chemists, engineers, and technical advisors. My research led me to buy Amsoil synthetic GL-4 75W-90 lube after very thorough education by one of their tech service people, and it worked wonders. I don't know what was in the tranny before, but it has been shifting very nicely and now has over 180,000 miles on it. Amsoil is harder to get than other stuff; you have to find a distributor from their web site. But I recommend it. Whatever you use, make sure it is GL-4 and 75W-90.
I wouldn't Amsoil motor oil because the senior chemist at Detroit Diesel, where I used to work, convinced me it was not all it was cracked up to be, based on a lot of testing.
No, I don't have any of the motor oil or gear lube data handy, but I committed to memory the bottom line of what all these guys told me.
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Old 12-06-2006, 01:59 PM   #74
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Re: The Flight of the PHOENIX !

Yea, any synthetic 75w90 will improve the tranny performance overall and also improve fuel economy. But you are not really in a cold area so 80w90 will be good.

DOCTORBILL,

Where is this thread you are talking about? Can you post the link to the filter discussion here so we can continue discussing it there?
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Old 12-06-2006, 06:31 PM   #75
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Re: The Flight of the PHOENIX !

BlazerLT, The oil filter link you are asking for is at: http://theoildrop.server101.com/foru...t=0&Board=UBB6
Lots of good info there, hours of poking around fun.
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