NOT the end of my '93 metro...Life after death! RINGS

[SchlockRod]

This is great reading; very informative and encouraging.
My questions:
Is it a good idea to re-use the pistons? I have at least one with a cracked-up skirt on my car with 180k miles on it. If the answer is no, can you buy new pistons? Where? How much?
My comments:
In my current situation (and with the insight from this very informative post) I think I will fall in between the Doc Bill approach (major surgery on my cylinders + new pistons & rod bearings, which I'm not sure I would exactly "enjoy" in the strictest sense of the word, but I am sure I would truly enjoy having done, but I'm afraid I have no time left for, having just replaced my cylinder head in error, with as much if not more anal, stressed-out, and meticulous care as the Good Doctor), and the Drive-it-off-a-cliff approach.
I expect that I will shortly be purchasing a JDM motor, pulling my engine & transaxle, and putting in the JDM motor & a new clutch and refinishing the flywheel.
I will then think about rebuilding the bottom end of the old engine to keep it as a spare, but I will probably just let it sit since the JDM motor will probably outlast the car here in Michigan. If I have a head problem on the JDM, I will at least have a just-remanufactured head.
Wrench on, Bill.

[geozukigti]

Originally Posted by SchlockRod

the JDM motor will probably outlast the car here in Michigan

As a Michigan guy myself, I second you on that. I've had a number of metros rust out on me. Hence, why I just bought a house with a garage. My vert has never been driven in the snow. And I always clean off the underbody, and make sure all is clean and well with it.

[DOCTORBILL]

Holy Horse Plops, guys!

Exactly what was needed! Now I can go at this w/o sweating it.

I ask this because - why should anyone have to reinvent the wheel each time
they work on a car....?

That is how these Chilton and Haynes manuals treat repair jobs...!

They are written by men who have done the work umpteen times and assume that
it is so simple that nothing need be said.

They themselves were probably shown how to do it by a shop instructor
or another mechanic and don't realize it.
Or some bean counter told them they can't have more than so many
photos, words and pages in the manual....

What seems obvious to them now was an unknown before they learned it (obvious - no?)

So, again, thanks! Those links to photos are great! I tried Googling, but came
up with garbage adverts for car parts....

I am having trouble working under the car...no room for my arms to move.

I have to raise my car higher. I have two metal ramps and two metal jack
stands. I will put the ramps on the back wheels and the Jack stands under
two points just behind the front wheels.

Then I will hone the cylinders. Schucks is supposed to have the rod bearings
in today. I have to take the Harbor-Frieght Ring Compression Tool back
(it is too big - 3" to 7") and get the smaller one at Schucks for $13.

So far so good....Knock on Wood.

I worry that when I start the engine up, I'll hear screaming and grinding.

Yesterday a wind storm whistled thru here and blew away all my cardboards
that I lay on over the dirt.... Hope no abrasive crap blew up into the
crankshaft parts.... This living out in farm country sucks pondwater!

DoctorBill

OH yes...and BTW - I do have a set of Feeler Gauges! I had forgotten about them!
I almost never use them and forgot I had a set. Now I can check the rings
for fit after I hone the cylinders...

[DOCTORBILL]

Now here is controversy for you!

Idmetro's links to the "Honing Process" are very nice!

I will repeat them again:

http://www.hastingsmfg.com/Service%2...efinishing.htm
http://www.teglerizer.com/triumphstu...ne_rebuild.htm
http://www.vms.ei.tum.de/publ/pdf/ci...%20cylinder%22

Here is a quote from the first one!

"The single most critical factor of any cylinder refinishing job is the cleaning of
that cylinder after the honing operation.
Proper cylinder cleaning consists of a thorough scrubbing of the block with
hot, soapy water taking care to clean the surface under the cylinder facing
the crankcase. Rinse with hot water, dry, and lightly oil to prevent rust."

Now some of you said - "No water!" This says use soap and water!

In deference to this web site and because using water is SO EASY, I am
going to use hot soapy water and my garden hose to get all the crap out after
honing...

I will slather on some spray can oil after everything dries. That way I can get the
oil into all the crankcase parts immediately.

I bought the following in hardware stores (not automotive stores!)
3-in-1 Professional High-Performance Lubricant Spray (with a tube to direct it) - very good!
Super-Tech White Lithium (Made for Wal-Mart) - (with a tube to direct it)
Gunk Chain Lube for Cycle and Farm Equipment - (with a tube to direct it)
All of these actually spray thicker oil - not the thin, evaporating type in WD-40....!


BTW - What is "Assembly Grease"?
Someone mentioned "Lubriplate" I cannot find small tubes of Lubriplate anywhere!

Here is an old tube I had from my father's toolbox!


I gather using grease is bad since it would prevent oil from flowing thru the new
bearings after first startup. Any suggestions on this?!

DoctorBill

[idmetro]

DOC;
After some consideration I'll amend my no soap and water for engine cleaning stance but I would refrain from using a hose as you could manage to get water where you don't want it and/or can't easily get it out. Just my preference...
As for assembly lube here is a link showing the Lubriplate product I have used in the past. http://www.northernautoparts.com/Pro...ctModelId=1660
The tube is larger than what you show but it's very cheap insurance for your work. I believe that just regular grease would be too thick and impede the flow of oil whereas the motor assembly lube is designed to provide initial lube then dissolve and flush into the oil. In the past I have purchased this assembly lube at NAPA.

[geozukigti]

I still stand by the no water policy . Water and soap won't do any more than wd-40 and a rag to wipe it out with will. Also, I use white lithium assembly grease. It completely dissolves in oil, and it's very easy to work with. It's consistency is that of whipped cream cheese. And it provides a very good barrier for initial startup. I lube the cylinder walls with it too when I install the pistons. I also put a little on the wrist pins, lifters, and any other surface that needs some oil at startup.

[DOCTORBILL]

I kinda figured that Lubriplate wasn't sold in small tubes anymore.

It is nice stuff for lubing small parts of mowers and such. I saw the big honker
tube in auto-stores!

I also figured that assembly lube must be something that doesn't impede the oil
flow..... kinda follows.

I fully intend to do the following - once all is reassembled and ready for starting
the engine, I am going to leave out the plugs, get the battery charger on and
just run the starter for a few minutes to let all the surfaces run without any
load on them!

That way, the oil can get pumped thru the new stuff and no bearing surfaces
will carry a load other than spinning. I'll change oil after two hundred miles, also!

"Sounds good to me....Duuuh!"

DoctorBill

HEY SchlockRod - go to Schucks web site:
http://www.partsamerica.com/Default.aspx
set to your model, year and go to engine parts.
They sell pistons - I think they were about $45 each...

[SchlockRod]

Thanks, Bill, for the piston source. I may get some and do a ridge/hone/ring job, but I think reading about your project is way more fun than I would have actually doing it. So in all likelihood I'll do the JDM engine thing.
Any guesstimates on # of novice shop hours for JDM engine swap with new clutch vs. new pistons & rings + ridge/hone and new rod bearings? let me know what you all think... I need to decide what to do.
Bill, I was taught early on while doing some valve train work on a Corvair that engine assembly lube is GM EOS (engine oil supplement) or equivalent, with equivalent being STP oil treatment. That's what I've always used, including recently when I put the reman head on my Metro; I dumped it all over the cam & lifters before putting on the cam cover.
Another important thing I thought of that you'll want to think about, which will no doubt start another wave of opinion-mongering:
When you put in the head bolts, you need to do the right thing with respect to cleaning the holes and oil vs. no oil. When I torqued my head bolts, some of them acted all grabby-like, like a creaky gate hinge. What the effect was on accuracy of torque (actually the key thing is clamp load on the mating surfaces, a whole other discussion but you at least need accurate & proper torque), I don't want to think about.
I chased all the bolt hole threads with WD-40 and a tap (not a bottoming tap; I don't know if that's needed), then I blew them out, then I cleaned them all out with pipe cleaners and brake cleaner, then I blew them out again. I was thinking later that a gun-cleaning bore brush would probably be better. BTW, an oily rag and a big magnet are good tools to use in areas that you're trying to keep bits of metal out of on jobs like this.
But the main question I (and I think you also) have is: do you oil the head bolts or not? I went by the #*^%&!!??>~!! Haynes manual, which said nothing about oil; therefore I used none. Now I'm thinking that maybe I should have used oil. All I know about this is:
a) Oil definitely affects clamp load. A torque applied with oil will give a higher clamp load than the same torque w/o oil.
b) My mercedes-Benz Diesel (a whole other universe due to way higher combustion pressures and irrelevant, perhaps) FSM says to oil the bolts.
Any advice on oiling head bolts for Bill & me, anyone?
Thanks.

[geozukigti]

Yes, you ALWAYS oil the bolts before you put them in. I personally dip them in motor oil and then drop them in. Before you put the head on, run a thread tap through the block. All the torque from the old headbolts can distort the threads in the block. The thread tap will clean them up so your torque wrench isn't measuring the force you're using to fight bad threads too.

[DOCTORBILL]

I always oil any bolt (or conversely any nut) that I am putting back onto
any machinery...better is axle grease!

If fact, after the experience of putting new brake shoes on the Suburban I had
several years ago, I now use Permtex Anti-Seize Lubricant on things I cannot
afford to have stick.

My old Suburban 4x4 needed new pads up front. I could not for the life of me
get the screws loose on the left side caliper. I actually stripped the bolt head
all to Hell trying to get it to loosen. Didn't have room & angle to get at it!

Finally went to the shop I normally frequented for the Suburban and had them
loosen it. Of course they used the old air-impact-hammer with an impact head
on it. I had to buy new bolts for that caliper.

I used Anti-Seize on that and all subsequent Bolts & Nuts on Cars & Trucks.
(Rhymes!) Anti-Seize appears to have powdered Aluminum in the grease.

I think that if the hydrocarbons (oil or grease) leave the area or are burned up
or boiled off, the powdered Aluminum, which remains behind, lubricates the
threads and lets them move.

Now I suppose I will hear ten people tell me not to use Anti-Seize on head
bolts....

I intend to buy some bottoming taps today - if my damned piston rod bearings ever
arrive at Schucks! - and some small brass tubing at the local hobby shop so that
I can rig up a tiny vacuum tube to suck the re-tapped hole out when done.

BTW - What is that Head Bolt size - 10 mm ? I guess I'd best invest in a bolt thread
identifer plate....

DoctorBill

PS - SchlockRod...are you going to rebuild, buy a used engine, or do both...?
I am confused by what you wrote.............

[JustSayGo]

Unbroken old rings work well for scraping the carbon off the top of the pistons. Scratches are not a problem.

Wash the block clean like you would wash dishes. Use a soft sponge or brush, not Scotch-Brite. Wash all the grey away that you can any where you see it inside the block. Your paper towels will give you the "white Glove" test.

Piston ring expanders are out because they put more stress opposite of the gap. Roll the rings on as a spiral without spreading them any more than neccasary. Oil the ring grooves with motor oil. Use motor oil on the cylinder walls, not assembly lube. Assembly lube will hold dirt and iron, taking longer to wash away when the engine starts as the rings and cylinder walls wear a bit when the rings seat. These are ring manufacture instructions.

Rod bearing tangs go on the same side when you bolt the connecting rod together.

Bolts should be lightly oiled and on engines that thread into the waterjacket (not your Geo) the threads require sealer and a dab under the head of the bolt. Do not drip oil into the bolt holes because hydraulic pressure will be created that will affect torque and even split the block down the length of the threads.

Do you understand Torque To Yield specs and tightening procedure for your head bolts?

Before you bolt the head on, clean and inspect your PCV system. The PCV system maintains lower pressure inside the engine than outside which will reduce oil leaks and improve your fuel mileage. Clear every passage from the PCV valve to the intake manifold.

[JustSayGo]

Why metric threads are superior to USS and SAE. Have you noticed how in most cases a metric bolt is very difficult to loosen yet you are able to easily remove them with your fingers after loosening one half turn. Metric threads are self locking when they are torqued to the correct torque.

All threads require clearance between the threads. Metric threads require much higher thread clearance tolerance to lock at the desired correct torque. The amount of clearance and the pitch of the threads affect at what torque the bolt will self lock.

The numbers on the head of the bolt identify far more than how strong the bolt is, they identify the clearance spec. Taps and dies can not compensate for varios clearances.

All torque specs are with clean lightly oiled threads.

geozukigti, do you have a Baptist minister in your family?

SchlockRod is correct that the real factor is equal clamping force accross the mating surfaces and gaskets.

If you can use a wire brush like on a new battery post cleaner to clean the threads in the block, and wire brush the bolt threads you will not loose any metric thread advantage. Bolts should easily turn all the way into the block with light finger pressure.

Useing a tap and or die or over tightening will very likely change the clearance of the threads. If the bolts do stick after cleaning then a tap may be neccasary.

GM EOS isn't the same as STP. Smells and pours different. Both are good for cams and lifters Have you seen GM EOS recently? I haven't seen any in years. Don't use a lot of STP. One can of STP changes viscosity of 5 qts of SAE 30 into SAE 40. This effect is even more undesirable in smaller engines. Use the motor oil recomended in your owners manual.

[DOCTORBILL]

I finally have everything I need to finish.

I bought a 2.75 Oz tube of Sta-Lube "E.P.Anti-Seize Engine Assembly
Lube with Graphite and Moly" from Schucks. $5
My Rod Bearings came in - ITM standard. $25
Got a smaller ring compressor there, also. $11 Goes down to 2 inches.

Bought 2 cases of Oil at COSTCO ($18 per case!) and a thread sizer set at
Harbor-Freight. $4 Been wanting that thread sizer for ages.

As to bottoming Taps - I decided I'd try something.
For the Head Bolts - I have the old ones.
How about I grind down 1/3 of one entire side such that the ground down
part will scour out any crap in the threads of the hole?
Then I remove the bolt and wipe off the crap from the flat ground down side....

My idea......should work fine!

A real "hot-shot" shop person could grind a "groove" down the length!

That ought to work for any bolt - just obtain the various sizes and keep them
in your toolbox.

Waddaya tink a dat...? Ain't I a geneeus or what?

As to putting the Head, Exhaust and Intake Manifolds back on - what is recommended
for the Gasket Compound for each one? I have a small bottle of black "Form-a-Gasket"
Gasket Compound that has a brush in it. But that can't be the stuff for all three
gaskets - no?

DoctorBill

PS - OFF TOPIC
I believe in passing on good information.
My wife suffers from bad headaches - she's married to me!
I got her something annoyingly advertised on TV. Click on this link to package photo.
http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/767...packageoa2.jpg
The damned stuff killed her headache in 30 freaking seconds!

[geozukigti]

I don't know how good of an idea that is bill. That old bolt is a stretched bolt, and can just tear the threads in the block up. They may look the same, but a few thousandths of stretching on the old threads, and having them cut into the block is a bad idea, that's what the tap is for. You can ruin the block with a "tool" like that. Your bolts might torque down correctly, but the threads could be damaged, and the bolt might eventually back out.

And "justsaygo" no, there's no bapist minister in my family, but thanks for your batism reference to dipping bolts in oil, it was very clever of you to point out such an obvious connection to oiling bolts and religious practices. Oh yes, it was very helpul to the thread too! And yes, I let the oil drip off the bolts for a few minutes before I install them, I don't throw them in with 6oz of oil on them, the excess oil would drip between the un-clamped headgasket and gasket surfaces. Not to mention it would create a hydraulic lock inside the bolt hole and make it a pain to get the bolt to torque down properly.

Oh, and no the bolt grade does not have anything to do with the thread's tolerance. The bolt grade has to do with the tensile strength of the bolt. All metric bolts are made to a specific tolerance for it's specific thread. Some cheap bolt made in china is not going to be on par with a proper graded bolt, that's for sure. But it's not the grade that makes the difference, it's the material and the process of manufacturing it.

[JustSayGo]

Bill, I think your home made thread chaser idea is genius at work and that grooves like a tap would be an improvement. Let us know how well it works, I am a bit skepticle. You can't hurt the threads in your block if you are only useing your fingers without a tool. The threads on the bolt don't stretch permenantly because nearly 80% of the load is distributed accross the first 3 threads and the remaining load goes to the rest. The area between the head of the bolt and the 1st thread into the block will have 100% of the load and that is where the TTY bolt stretches permenantly, probably the threaded part of the bolt that doesn't reach into the block is where all the yield will be.

What kind of gaskets do you have? Who made them? Post a picture of the intake and exhaust gaskets. What does your can of Permatex form-a-gasket say? 3 or 3D?