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Old 05-10-2008, 01:05 AM   #1
DOCTORBILL
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Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

I read Google News - Science & Technology section.
It changes each day....

http://news.google.com/nwshp?tab=wn&ned=us&topic=t

Today a blurb came up about making Ethanol in one's own Backyard....HA !
But - if it were it possible....

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=...thanol-brewers
http://www.news.com/2300-13833_3-623...g=nefd.gallery
http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/05/make-your-own-e.html

However - the question came to mind...if oil gets so high in price that people
actually would try making ethanol from "Rubbish" - kitchen plant material,
grass clippings, tree leaves, pig dump, whatever would FERMENT....

Could one get the wondrous Geo Metro to run on such stuff...?

Not a dumb question what with us having to pay Gawd Awful prices for gasoline!

DoctorBill

BTW - Thank you, all you Environmentalists who've stopped all new refinery
construction, oil drilling, oil exploration, nuclear power plant construction -
your efforts may take us back to the Stone Age...for everyone except you
of course....
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Old 05-10-2008, 09:54 AM   #2
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

Not really unless you want to kill the metro in a short time.
The Ethanol is highly corossive and it will destroy the fuel injection components in no time gaskets and all, you have to retrofit the entire fuel delivery system.
In Europe alot of cars were retrofited thru a very smart and easy to install kit to run on methane gas, the kits were in the $500 range , here you can't find them courtesy of the big oil lobby claiming that there is a big danger of blowing up, in Europe there is no instance not a single one of explosion, they even sell kits to refuel the tank from the home gas line.
If you go to Home Depot, Lowes and other huge wharehouses you will see that the lifters runs on natural gas and the reason is that is cheap, run 99% clean with no gases and is healthy in closed enviroments.
Better look into that I am trying for a long time but the last kit I ordered from Europe got stoped at the customs and sent back.
BTW you can run even from the barbeque tank to.
Also for 10k I better buy another car, how long it will take to save by breaking even ?
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Old 05-10-2008, 10:31 AM   #3
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

Ethanol is currently about a buck a gallon cheaper than unleaded. Lets see $10,000, that would be 10,000 gallons of fuel to make up that dollar per gallon. If you get 30 miles to the gallon then that would be about 300,000 miles. If you drive 20,000 miles per year that would be pay back in 15 years give or take a day. What do you think at this point?
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Old 05-11-2008, 07:03 AM   #4
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

Ethanol is a buck cheaper, but it only has 60% as much energy as gasoline, what's the point? You end up spending the same amount, but refuelling twice as often.
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Old 05-11-2008, 11:15 AM   #5
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

As long as we keep killing Muslims the intellectual think tank and political powerhouse Saudi Arabia they will continue to look for new ways to make life tough for the infidels. Currently the most effective economic warfare is to bankrupt the infidels economy by applying a tax in the form of higher energy cost. You are wise to expect fuel at a minimum of $6-$10 per gallon over the life of the cars on the road today. In addition new production like the TaTa Nano at $2500 claiming 50 mpg will put millions of new cars on the road in developing economies like China, India and Brazil etc. this increased demand will keep fuel prices from back sliding. As the oil based fuel goes up technically so will the alternatives this is already one of the complains with corn based ethanol it is driving up the price of corn used for food add to that excessive demand in the future as a fuel and its cost advantage may disappear. The Geo Metropolitano 1.0L is an economically stealth piece of equipment that lives in a nitch under the large car manufacturers profitability threshold as well as the irresponsible resource consumption well under the 1940s image of what a car should be. There are several versions of the Geo that are full electric conversions I always wondered as an option to converting the fuel using a combination electric and gas design. There are Hypebrids like Prius on the market but they are just gimmicks to skim the cash off fuel savings up front and plow it back to the car manufacturer given the car price. Good you are looking for options and always keep in mind during hard time fuel rationing is a possibility down the line.
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Old 05-11-2008, 09:50 PM   #6
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

sixseas dude overall you stray away from the subject, if I remember well the muslims Koran says that you have,,to spread the muslim religion thru the power of the sword" so don't even try to make us feel guilty.
We are looking for solutions not political reasons, do you have a technical oppinion you want to share with us?
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Old 05-11-2008, 10:55 PM   #7
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

First off -

SixSeas - try using punctuation and some carriage returns to make your comments
more readable!

Will Help and Woodie83 -
This was a question based on Gasoline continuing to go up in price....

Your arguments kill all endeavors to find new sources of fuel....based on the
fact that it costs too much to do NOW !
Ethanol, BioDiesel, Electric, Rubber Bands, Guinea Pigs on a wheel...all need looking into!

Assuming that Gas does continue to go up in price and doesn't come back down,
and that folks come up with ways to make ETHANOL economically, could we get
the Metro to run on it?

Use your imagination....

Second -

Don't get me started on Oil and Muslims....especially the latter.

I might even go off on Environmentalists - who ARE causing this ENTIRE problem
by taking control of Congress and Stonewalling the new construction of gasoline
refineries and Nuclear Power Plants via ASSININE EPA roadblocks set up by the
fools in our Congress.

Then stopping ALL drilling and exploring for Oil because it might inconvenience
some damned Deer or Tick species in some remote area uninhabitable by humans.

We have more oil than we know what to do with! The oil field in Montana and Southern
Canada is about 40 times LARGER than they thought. Crude is not the problem.

Constipation of Conversion to Gasoline is the problem.

Then of course is the CO2 - Greenhouse Gas problem - even ETHANOL won't fix that.

Third -

As everyone SHOULD know, our electricity is made essentially by burning COAL -
which is one big major polluter.

So electric cars are a cruel joke on silly, unthinking do-good environmentalist
soccer-moms who are fool enough to think it is CLEAN and GREEN...Lord!

"Sounds like a good idea" is all I ever hear from all the Kalifornians who left
that state to escape the idiotic laws being enacted there, but bring those
dumb laws with them to institute in our State.

I don't know anyone who wants ex-Kalifornians to come to their State....except
maybe Real Estate Agents who make the 7% commission when they buy a Huge House from
the money they made selling their inflated house in Kalifornia.

Go back to California, you idiots and leave my State alone!

See! You got me started....darn! But I'm all better now....

DoctorBill
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Old 05-12-2008, 05:12 AM   #8
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

I have no interest in getting politically involved here.

I would like to share a novice idea however, and criticize at will...

I think electrically powered cars are the answer provided two prerequisites are met:

A) Better battery technology, because current batteries offer poor range and are extensively taxing on the environment.

B) The electricity used to 'charge' the cars batteries comes from a back-yard solar source. Be it clumsy and relatively inefficient solar panels, or a recent and new technology we can expect to see surface, which is a highly efficient solar film.

Solar energy is already there, if we could harness 2% of the solar radiation in our back yards a day, we'd all be set... we could power our cars and our houses... it's only a matter of developing the technology.

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Old 05-12-2008, 08:51 AM   #9
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

For what it is worth, 91Caprice9c1, I agree completely with you!

Electric cars are the answer - it is just that recharging them with normal household 110 or 220 volts
is a lie - you are burning COAL to run the car - with tremendously bad efficiency added on!

Where I live, about 33% of the time we have strong winds that each house
could use to recharge a car's batteries.

A small car - like a '93 Metro - not some 3,000 pound four door, trailer hauling SUV
type of vehicle.

But the Wind Mills would be considered "Ugly" and would disturb the Willow Tit's
and Hedge Sparrow's Spring Mating activities...

We could have Nuclear Powered Electricity - clean and pure - if we could build
the power plants w/o endless expensive and constipating Red Tape.

Battery advances and Solar Cell advances would be there if we threw money
at the Scientists like we do for finding new weapons of war....

Everything, but everything is "political" these days. Nothing is immune.

If by some chance it wasn't 'political", the media would make sure it became political.

So we have to talk about these things and get pissed when nothing is done.
If you don't "get political", nothing is done.

Even for a Geo Metro - the squeaky wheel gets oiled.

DoctorBill
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Old 05-12-2008, 01:05 PM   #10
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

After running Sprint then Metro 1.0Ls on my 2150 mile commute since 1987. I’ve looked at almost every conversion from natural gas to burger grease. The Metro’s original design is pleasing and economically unique so it will let you cruise right past today’s complex world of auto company, political, and energy industries manipulation at the most reasonable cost.

In addition to artificial manipulation the forces of supply and demand for fuel by its nature will bid up alternative fuels so if your 1.0L consumption is low it’s your best defense burning any fuel. You already have tremendous economic advantage over the old 1940s design guzzlers. Watch Archer Daniels Midland (ADM) they are a lobbying powerhouse and the largest producers of Ethanol they seek large profits.

I did go after one Metro conversion and still regret missing. It was at Fathers Joes auction in the early 1990s. (Father Joes is the huge auction for cars donated to Catholic Charities in Nevada, California and Arizona sold to Mexico) I found a conversion by an engineer in Arizona, the back seat and luggage area nicely converted to hold batteries. Rear wheels were run by small electric motors his spec sheet said batteries would power the Metro to 55 mph for 70 miles or you could reverse with a pedal switch while downhill or running the gas 1.0L engine and charge the bank of batteries. It bid way past what I had to $12500 at a time new Metros sold for about $8 to $10k. Still wonder if it was capable of 75 maybe even 100 mpg?

Before undertaking any conversion, and risk your car, or put thousands dollars in time and money converting only to find a marginal gain study the options carefully before opening the tool box. Any fuel we burn has complex global pricing pressures so the low consumption of the 1.0L is still your best way slip right past the gotcha boys.
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Old 05-12-2008, 02:47 PM   #11
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

Very interesting SixSeas.

Whatever one attempts to use to power an automobile to 55 mph is going to

1. Produce Heat (who cares?)

2. Pollute with some Carbon Dioxide - CO2

....except for Electric or Hydrogen if made w/o burning something.

So the answer to no pollution is -

Nuclear Power (including Fusion if it ever can be developed)
or
Wind / Tidal Power
or
Sunlight
or
Geothermal

Any of the above can recharge a battery or make Hydrogen cleanly.

So all you Environmentalist Nay Sayers, step aside for the power sources listed
above and actually encourage them - make some kind of positive contribution!

Once we populate the Earth to 2 or 3 or 4 times the present numbers, we will
not be able to use "Fossil Fuel" due to Carbon Dioxide levels causing Global Warming.

Unless some totally new technology appears (vacuum energy or...???) to replace
burning carbon compounds
, we will not be able to drive automobiles around or
trucks or aircraft in any appreciable numbers, or we will live in a smog filled,
hot and uninhabitable world. The above exceptions notwithstanding.

I wonder what the next 100 years holds for us?

Our children are in for some tough times.

I have faith that we humans will be able to figure it out, though.

"Necessity is the mother of invention."

DoctorBill
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Old 05-12-2008, 05:15 PM   #12
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

I don't know how old every boby is in this particular forum but I am old enough to remember something that sounds exactly like todays news:

I remember making $ 1.25 an hour and paying $ .35 for a gallon of gas. That was 25% of an hours wage. Today, if you make $ 16.00 an hour and pay $ 4.00 per gallon, you still pay 25% of an hours wage.

Sounds like the more we change, the more we stay the same!!!

Most factory workers make more than that these days. Plumbers, electricians and other skilled trades do alot better. If you can afford expensive sound systems, wheels, low riders etc... then gas should not be a problem expense unless you like a nice sounding, good looking yard decoration.

When your wants out weigh your needs, you probably need to take the bus anyway.
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Old 05-12-2008, 11:40 PM   #13
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

My Boss (before I was laid off in '99 at 55 years of age), used to wax philosophical
and I, being a captive audience, had to set there and listen to him.

He said the worst thing that happened to women was that they wanted to go out
and work....!

He said that once women started working, en mass, the income of households nearly doubled (more or less).
He said that this would cause prices to double and then women would have to work!.

Damn - I hate to say it but I think he was right!

A single income household is suffering these days.

The price of a good car has more than doubled as have home prices.
I bought a nice two bedroom home in 1982 for $35,000 - now a Suburban costs more than that!

That is inflation....

More money (disposable income), the more prices go up.

How bad can it get?

I lived in Argentina from 1974 to 1977 and saw inflation of 30% per month!
People bought American Dollars on payday just to keep the value of their paycheck constant
while they spent it over the month.

If you haven't traveled abroad, you have no idea how well off we are in America!
......and we piss and moan and bitch and complain about how bad off we are!

Does anyone know the price of Gasoline in Mexico or Latin America right now?

DoctorBill

PS - Will Help - I remember coming home from High School in the early 1960's and buying
a McDonald's Hamburger (15¢) and Fries (10¢) for a quarter !

My Dad thought it was too expensive!

A pack of Coffin Nails was 28¢ if I remember - of course I wouldn't know - never smoked....
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Old 05-13-2008, 06:01 AM   #14
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

Mexico is about 5 cents cheaper than we are, Brazil is over $6.00, Venezuela is around twenty cents a gallon. Brazil and Venezuela share a border, go figure. Most of Europe is over $9.00. Sierra Leone is over $18.00 and Nigeria is around $.50
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Old 05-13-2008, 09:41 AM   #15
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

Woodie93 -

Are you taking into account that other countries use the per Liter price?

Then there is the currency conversion....

A US Gallon is about 3.8 Liters!

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