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Old 11-12-2004, 01:56 AM   #46
KMoney28
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Haha I know, I was just messin with you. 1 15" in a ported with a nice amp(like Cadence) should sound nice, and be loud. I went for spl so mine gets hella loud, but only sounds marginal sq wise.
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Old 11-12-2004, 02:07 AM   #47
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Oh yeah, head units. I plan on selling my DEH-P5600MP for a new head unit.

So the question remains, which head unit would you recommend to me?
Pioneer DEH-P960MP
Pioneer DEH-P860MP
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Old 11-12-2004, 10:17 AM   #48
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Re: Re: Re: Which of these subs would you get?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr20de4evr
When it drags the voltage into the 12's, that means it's pulling so much power that it's completely saturated the alternator and it's taking the rest of what it needs from the battery. Too much of that and the battery will run dead while the car's still running, but unless you're listening to a test tone there will be enough breaks in between the huge draws to keep the battery charged. Like I said though, at that level it's unbearable to be in the car, I've only done that once and that's while I was standing outside the car filming the sub.
well that makes sense... but im still curious as to why my friends truck cant handle what your car can if its about the same electrical setup(minus the wire setup you just told me about). He has only 1000 rms and cant turn it up more than about half way before his voltage meter in his car would flick all the way to the left (about 6-8 volts on the guage). He bought a capacitor even though i told him it wouldnt do much.. but i think even after we install that today he wont get half the potential that he could out of his subs.. and theyre only solo barics so he needs to turn it up to really hear em.
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Old 11-12-2004, 11:19 AM   #49
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Re: Which of these subs would you get?

remember, his truck is probably bigger so the engine and accessories will draw more current. Car manufacturers didn't make an alternator just for car audio you know.


Another thing is that the alternator does not always put out the same mount of power. The power it makes varies with the engine RPM. Most of the stock alternator won't make power until higher RPM. If your friend has a truck that makes a good load of low end power, chances are that it doesn't need to rev as high as a 4 cyl. engine to get power. And if the engine does not reach high enough RPM, then the alternator will not make maximum. Now i'm not telling him to run his car at 4k RPM everywhere he goes. lol.


get rid of the cap, it's making things worse than helping it. You're putting an extra load on the alternator.

How old is your friend's battery?

How loud does he turn on ?

Having an amp capable of 1000w does not always mean its putting out that much. Some people (like me) can claim to have a 1000w amp and not have a problem with electrical power, but in reality, my sub will only see about 300w at most if i'm lucky since I don't blast my music around.
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Old 11-12-2004, 05:07 PM   #50
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Re: Which of these subs would you get?

batterys two years old, he has a 91 f 150.. he only has his music up about 1/4 of the way and his amp up about 3/4 of the way and hes blowin 80 amp fuses. im sure his amps only puttin otu like 900 watts of so.. nto the 1000 it claims.. btu its an RF so it cant be all that overrated. even still.. his voltage guage should be goin crazy with such low volume if people can run 1500 watts before their guages bottom out.
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Old 11-12-2004, 08:20 PM   #51
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Re: Re: Re: Which of these subs would you get?

Quote:
Originally Posted by threedd97
We'll go with $2000. This will include the amplifier and the subwoofers. I would rather purchase online. The cost is less and the selection is larger. Front stage I assume you mean door speakers and tweaters up front. The car I drive is in my signature. Trunk space is huge. I have a stock 8 speaker setup that I will not be changing. I'm just looking to replace what was stolen (with something a hell of a lot better). I'm looking for subwoofers that will hit low and high bass extremely well. I want a clean sound as well, even if that means detracting from how low it will hit.

As far as 2 12"s in comparison to 1 15", is the sound difference really that large? Is it just a misconception that I have that two smaller speakers can produce more sound than one larger speaker? Will the 15" reach lower sounds than 2 12"s?

Music I listen to
Techno (drum & bass and jungle mostly)
Hip-Hop / Rap (just to utilize my investment to it's fullest)
Rock / Alternative
Blues (SRV, Kenny Wayne Sheppherd, Clapton, Alman Bros., etc.)
Country
$2000 for just a sub stage? im assumeing SQL... well if you want to put a XXX or Brahma to shame in SPL and still hold nearly equal SQ... DD9500 series... my god SR20 how did you not bring this up... 1 9515 will cost you around $650. has a far greater SPL capabilities while retaining equal SQ. a good 2000-3000w RMS amp will work well. DD underrates. this woofer is rated to 1200RMS but could easily handle 1600RMS. reccomended Music wattage is 2400 RMS but they could easily handle 3000RMS and they hit their thermal peak (rated) at 4800w...however i have seen 3000w on each coil in SPL vehicles. that is 5-10sec burps... DD doesnt tell where the woofer will reach maximum excursion but i would say around 2800w. a 5cuft enclosure tuned to 30Hz will offer great SQ. a put about 65-75sqin of port area on it for good port velocity. the XXX has 32mm xmax 1 way which is 64mm total and the 9500 has 75mm... a little less than 1/2" more. the 9500 offers a flat BL curve just like the XBL^2 motor but isnt as efficent. there fore a greatter thermal wattage will be needed but i think you will be more htan satisfied with the 9500...though you will be quite happy with the XXX or Brahma as well. however your stock 8 speaker stereo may not suffice if you are wanting to play either of these woofers at maximum potential volume... the XXX will be hitting in the high 130's low 140's and the 9500 mid-high 140's... and in a pure SPL set up into the high 150's...i think there have even been a few cases of a single 9500 breaking into the 160's on the old Mic's.
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Old 11-12-2004, 11:27 PM   #52
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Re: Which of these subs would you get?

I didn't bring it up because I'm not a fan of DD

The 9500 won't be any louder than the XXX unless he steps up the power a TON, and no the SQ is not better. I really don't know where you're coming up with this stuff, the 9515 only has a 16mm xmax (compared to the XXX's 32mm), the thing with the 9515 is it has close to a 75mm xmech (not xmax!). Yes it can physically move that far if you feed it 4-5kw, but it will sound like royal ass doing it, and you will thermal the coil if you keep it up for any longer than a short burp. Also the 9515 has one of the peakiest BL curves in the history of mankind, you would have to be 100% blind in order to think it was anywhere close to flat.

It's an SPL sub that doesn't sound as bad on music as the MT, I wouldn't consider it anything more if I were you.
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Old 11-13-2004, 04:17 AM   #53
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Which of these subs would you get?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBFryman
$2000 for just a sub stage? im assumeing SQL... well if you want to put a XXX or Brahma to shame in SPL and still hold nearly equal SQ... DD9500 series... my god SR20 how did you not bring this up... 1 9515 will cost you around $650. has a far greater SPL capabilities while retaining equal SQ. a good 2000-3000w RMS amp will work well. DD underrates. this woofer is rated to 1200RMS but could easily handle 1600RMS. reccomended Music wattage is 2400 RMS but they could easily handle 3000RMS and they hit their thermal peak (rated) at 4800w...however i have seen 3000w on each coil in SPL vehicles. that is 5-10sec burps... DD doesnt tell where the woofer will reach maximum excursion but i would say around 2800w. a 5cuft enclosure tuned to 30Hz will offer great SQ. a put about 65-75sqin of port area on it for good port velocity. the XXX has 32mm xmax 1 way which is 64mm total and the 9500 has 75mm... a little less than 1/2" more. the 9500 offers a flat BL curve just like the XBL^2 motor but isnt as efficent. there fore a greatter thermal wattage will be needed but i think you will be more htan satisfied with the 9500...though you will be quite happy with the XXX or Brahma as well. however your stock 8 speaker stereo may not suffice if you are wanting to play either of these woofers at maximum potential volume... the XXX will be hitting in the high 130's low 140's and the 9500 mid-high 140's... and in a pure SPL set up into the high 150's...i think there have even been a few cases of a single 9500 breaking into the 160's on the old Mic's.
I'm not looking for all of that. I don't wnat to have to have a secondary alternator installed and drop $2000 on that kind of amplifier either. Thanks for the input, but this is really left for the SPL enthusiast who wants to sit outside of his car and rattle it to death.
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Old 11-13-2004, 04:27 AM   #54
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Gah, I'm flip flopping between the USA 2000X and the Cadence ZRS-8.

Help me make my decision. Will the USA 2000X make enough of a difference to justify paying $300+ more?
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Old 11-13-2004, 07:57 AM   #55
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Re: Which of these subs would you get?

SR20 have you ever even heard a 9515 in an SQ set up? ive heard 3 and the responce is very flat at low and high volumes. the 9500 isnt DD's SPL woofer. DD's only SPL woofer is 9900 which cost twice that of the 9500. but even the 9900 has good flat responce because it is a very flexible woofer and needs to be able to play at the resonant frequincy of whatever vehicle it is chosen to play in. the only reason DD markets to SPL is because that is all kids who also buy mainstream crap will notice DD. it is the same as JL, but DD doesnt waste their time on marketing ploy's like JL does and therefore saves cash and their woofers dont cost more. all higher end DD woofers are hand made and precision built. as apposed to RE who has theirs flued and asembled by machien. i think you need to show more respect to DD if all you have heard of DD are SPL enclosures and amps in every day drivers...
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Old 11-13-2004, 11:46 AM   #56
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Re: Which of these subs would you get?

DD is not the same as JL, not in any way

yes I have heard the 9500 in SQL setups and they get very loud, but the SQ could be better. Like I said before they are an SPL sub that sounds decent on music. They're for an SPL competitor who wants to be able to listen to their system every day without switching out the sub and have it still sound decent. The Brahma, XXX, w7, etc are the opposite, they're for someone who wants the ultimate in SQ, but they want to be able to do decent if they were to enter an SPL competition too.

I would consider DD's lower lines similar to RE's lower lines as far as performance, goals, price, etc go, but when you get to the XXX and the 9500, they really split apart.
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Old 11-13-2004, 11:50 AM   #57
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Re: Which of these subs would you get?

Quote:
Originally Posted by threedd97
Gah, I'm flip flopping between the USA 2000X and the Cadence ZRS-8.

Help me make my decision. Will the USA 2000X make enough of a difference to justify paying $300+ more?
I wouldn't think so, but I've never owned a US Amps

One thing to consider is the 2000X is a class a/b amp, some say that class a/b will have better control over the sub than a class d due to their output stages, and they think that a/b sounds better on subs. I'm not sure how much truth that holds, but the other side of the argument is class a/b isn't nearly as efficient as class d. The 2000X will probably be about 50-60% efficient, while the ZRS-8 will be closer to 80-90%. So if each amp was putting out 1500rms, the ZRS-8 would have to draw around 130 amps, and the 2000X would have to draw around 200 amps.
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Old 11-13-2004, 12:52 PM   #58
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Which of these subs would you get?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBFryman
has a far greater SPL capabilities while retaining equal SQ.
equal sound quality..maybe if god spread SQ dust powder on it. the XXX is going to have less distortion. that's the advantage of flat BL.


Quote:
DD doesnt tell where the woofer will reach maximum excursion but i would say around 2800w.
they don't tell you when the sub reaches max excursion because they can't. no company will tell you unless they specify a box because excursion is dependent of the enclosure.


Quote:
a 5cuft enclosure tuned to 30Hz will offer great SQ. a put about 65-75sqin of port area on it for good port velocity.

IMO, a 3.5 cubes box would be better than 5 cubes. a ported box, unlike a sealed box, will give you more peaks when you increase the volume. Sealed box do the opposite, i gives you a smoother response. 5.0 cubes would be where you would more SPL than SQ.


Quote:
the XXX has 32mm xmax 1 way which is 64mm total and the 9500 has 75mm... a little less than 1/2" more.
like sr20 said, the 75mm figure is peak to peak xmech or however DD wants to call their magical number. That is not close to one way xmax at all.

Quote:
the 9500 offers a flat BL curve just like the XBL^2 motor but isnt as efficent.
the 9500 uses the standard motor. That motor (same topology as found in many other subs) has no way of channeling it's magnetic flux, so you're going to lose BL as soon the coil is moving away from it's rest position. If the 9500 has a flat BL curve, I can't wait to see what a parabolic curve would look like

Quote:
the XXX will be hitting in the high 130's low 140's and the 9500 mid-high 140's... and in a pure SPL set up into the high 150's...i think there have even been a few cases of a single 9500 breaking into the 160's on the old Mic's.
the XXX is not made to shoot out SPL out of it's cone. It's made for sound quality. Ask David or Scott from RE. It is no way a sub made just for SPL. Just straight sound quality, but it happens that it can get loud also. Kinda like the W7.

[quote]

ive heard 3 and the responce is very flat at low and high volumes.

[quote]how are you able to tell if the response was flat with your ears? I personally can't, at least not at high volume anyways. That is unless, you got a built in RTA in your ears. lol. I am unfortunate to not have that.

Quote:
but even the 9900 has good flat responce because it is a very flexible woofer and needs to be able to play at the resonant frequincy of whatever vehicle it is chosen to play in.
all subs can play at the resonant freq. of the car. even a cheap 5" sub can do that. lol. Again, how is the 9900 "flat response" measured? Every box is going to yield different response, and even then, you're going to have to EQ it to make it flat after it's in the car. No sub is flat straight out of the box


Quote:
the only reason DD markets to SPL is because that is all kids who also buy mainstream crap will notice DD. it is the same as JL, but DD doesnt waste their time on marketing ploy's like JL does and therefore saves cash and their woofers dont cost more.
have you seen JL's marketing department? It's smaller than 15'x15' i believe. It's the dealers that are spouting out the words. You have contradictred yourself. You can buy a 13w7 through a dealer for $600 (providing the dealer does not jack up the price). the 9500 is $650 as you said, and the 9900 is about double of that. How does their woofer not cost more?


Quote:
all higher end DD woofers are hand made and precision built. as apposed to RE who has theirs flued and asembled by machien.
machine assembled does not mean it's cheap. I bet the car 90% of the people are riding on are machine assembled. Yet we don't see them break down everywhere. What if I were to say the W7 uses custom parts and the only regular off the shelf parts used is the 4 bolts to hold the basket to the motor? Does that mean DD is cheap because it uses off the shelf parts? of course not.

Quote:
i think you need to show more respect to DD if all you have heard of DD are SPL enclosures and amps in every day drivers...

I have respect for DD, hence why I bought my pair of DD3515 3 years ago. lol. Sounded nice, but it had to go because I was looking for better sound reproduction.



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Old 11-13-2004, 02:11 PM   #59
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Which of these subs would you get?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GSteg
equal sound quality..maybe if god spread SQ dust powder on it. the XXX is going to have less distortion. that's the advantage of flat BL.
9500's where built for sound reproduction...what are you talking about? my god.




Quote:
Originally Posted by GSteg
they don't tell you when the sub reaches max excursion because they can't. no company will tell you unless they specify a box because excursion is dependent of the enclosure.
To my knowledge Adire has charts on all of hteir woofers to what sized sealed enclsoure will allow for maximum excursion... neitehr RE nor DD do this.




Quote:
Originally Posted by GSteg
IMO, a 3.5 cubes box would be better than 5 cubes. a ported box, unlike a sealed box, will give you more peaks when you increase the volume. Sealed box do the opposite, i gives you a smoother response. 5.0 cubes would be where you would more SPL than SQ.
3.5cubes on a singular 15 displacing htat much air? and you are talking to me about SQ? i geuss so if you like the sound of a very windy port. a ported box only peaks at around the tuneing frequincy, this peak can be easily off set for SQ by low tuning and proper port size for proper port velocity. along time ago Halibane showed me what playing around in WinISD will do for you...maybe you should do the same.



Quote:
Originally Posted by GSteg
like sr20 said, the 75mm figure is peak to peak xmech or however DD wants to call their magical number. That is not close to one way xmax at all.
75mm is what it takes to bottom out the suspension. which can be done with out, as sr20 stated, thermaling the coils. DD also markets agianst Xmax since, as is true, xmax doesnt state how well a motor can stop a coil and then turn it a round in the other direction. if 10mm out of your excursion is the morot trying to slow and pull the cone in the other dirtection bass gets slopy and isnt as loud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GSteg
the 9500 uses the standard motor. That motor (same topology as found in many other subs) has no way of channeling it's magnetic flux, so you're going to lose BL as soon the coil is moving away from it's rest position. If the 9500 has a flat BL curve, I can't wait to see what a parabolic curve would look like
9500 uses a standard coil...however the magnet set up uses extra long magentic feilds. though it isnt as good as XBL it is still the highest of highs. im not and never did bash the XXX nor the Brahma. im jsut tired of everyone saying "oh yes they have XBL^2, they are the greatest in the world for SQ and SQL."



Quote:
Originally Posted by GSteg
the XXX is not made to shoot out SPL out of it's cone. It's made for sound quality. Ask David or Scott from RE. It is no way a sub made just for SPL. Just straight sound quality, but it happens that it can get loud also. Kinda like the W7.
the XXX wasnt made to shoot out SQ either. because if they did they wouldnt be paying adire for XBL^2. they would most likely be paying JL for DMA technoligy since, after all, when looking for SQ XBL delivers almsot no THD but DMA does also. the XXX is a widely used SPL woofer and so is the Brahma and so is the 9100, 9500, and 9900 (which are so expensive because DD only makes a limited ammount).


Quote:
Originally Posted by GSteg
I have respect for DD, hence why I bought my pair of DD3515 3 years ago. lol. Sounded nice, but it had to go because I was looking for better sound reproduction.
3500's are good for daily drivers, if you where looking for SQ i would have reccomended the 9100 or 2500. but w/e.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GSteg
I'll put on my flaming suit now
ya you go ahead and do that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sr20de4evr

DD is not the same as JL, not in any way

yes I have heard the 9500 in SQL setups and they get very loud, but the SQ could be better. Like I said before they are an SPL sub that sounds decent on music. They're for an SPL competitor who wants to be able to listen to their system every day without switching out the sub and have it still sound decent. The Brahma, XXX, w7, etc are the opposite, they're for someone who wants the ultimate in SQ, but they want to be able to do decent if they were to enter an SPL competition too.

I would consider DD's lower lines similar to RE's lower lines as far as performance, goals, price, etc go, but when you get to the XXX and the 9500, they really split apart.
im not disagreeing on the DD wanting to be the guy who wants loud and still sound good... one reason why i like DD so is because thats me. i like my SQ while listening to songs such as "stairway to hevan" or "My Own Prison" or "buffalo soldier" etc... but i also like my loud ear shaddring distortion and ground pounding bass on songs such as "immigrant song" or "heart breaker" or "crazy train" or "iron man" or "freek-a-leek (lol)" however i would beleive a DD1000 or DD2000'a' would put a W0 or even W3 to shame. and the W6's are about on the DD2500 level but cost a tad more and DD3500's will liekly put W6v2's away SPL v SPL...about equal in the SQL department. the W7 is the only JL woofer i have respect for. but for this boards information MSRP on a W713 is $999.00.... and i would take a DD9917 over a JL 13W7 anyday...and the 9917 is only 300 more...
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Old 11-13-2004, 03:25 PM   #60
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Which of these subs would you get?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBFryman
9500's where built for sound reproduction...what are you talking about? my god.
"Sound reproduction" sure, every speaker is, that's the definition of a speaker....but the 9500 was not built with the ultimate goal of SQ in mind

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBFryman
3.5cubes on a singular 15 displacing htat much air? and you are talking to me about SQ? i geuss so if you like the sound of a very windy port. a ported box only peaks at around the tuneing frequincy, this peak can be easily off set for SQ by low tuning and proper port size for proper port velocity. along time ago Halibane showed me what playing around in WinISD will do for you...maybe you should do the same.
Port noise has to do with the crossectional area of the port, not the box size. And it was me who showed you the WinISD plots, and I'll let GSteg defend himself against your "suggestions", I don't think you know who you're talking to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBFryman
75mm is what it takes to bottom out the suspension. which can be done with out, as sr20 stated, thermaling the coils. DD also markets agianst Xmax since, as is true, xmax doesnt state how well a motor can stop a coil and then turn it a round in the other direction. if 10mm out of your excursion is the morot trying to slow and pull the cone in the other dirtection bass gets slopy and isnt as loud.
I said you can only get the sub to move that far if you feed it an absurd amount of power for a burp, if you hold it out for any more than a couple seconds you will melt down the coil. And I don't think you even know how a speaker works based on your second statement. Xmag is how far the cone can move before your BL drops to 70% of its rest value, Xsus is the point where the compliance of the suspension drops to 25% of its rest value, and Xmax is the lesser of the two. Xmech is how far the cone can physically move before you hit something hard, it will be past the Xmag and the Xsus, which means that at this point neither the motor nor the suspension is moving linearly anymore, and you have quite a bit of distortion in the sound. But with SPL, distortion doesn't matter, just as long as the speaker doesn't self-destruct. You're right the Xmax doesn't state "how well a motor can stop a coil and then turn it a round in the other direction", because that doesn't even apply really. The motor doesn't have to work to stop the coil, there is enough restoring force in the suspension to stop the cone almost immediately if you cut the power going to the motor, so everything you just said is a non-issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBFryman
9500 uses a standard coil...however the magnet set up uses extra long magentic feilds. though it isnt as good as XBL it is still the highest of highs. im not and never did bash the XXX nor the Brahma. im jsut tired of everyone saying "oh yes they have XBL^2, they are the greatest in the world for SQ and SQL."
Again, I don't think you have any idea about the inner workings of the magnetic field, flux, BL, etc. If you did then you'd realize that your statement has nothing to do with what GSteg said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBFryman
the XXX wasnt made to shoot out SQ either. because if they did they wouldnt be paying adire for XBL^2. they would most likely be paying JL for DMA technoligy since, after all, when looking for SQ XBL delivers almsot no THD but DMA does also. the XXX is a widely used SPL woofer and so is the Brahma and so is the 9100, 9500, and 9900 (which are so expensive because DD only makes a limited ammount).
Actually it was made for SQ
And again you still don't know what XBL^2 or DMA are, they're Adire's and JL's answers to flat-BL. Both accomplish the exact same thing, just through different methods. Don't really know what that THD comment is about, BL non-linearities are a form of distortion, one of the main forms, so by reducing them you reduce the distortion, which reduces the THD. Both XBL^2 and DMA do this.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBFryman
and DD3500's will liekly put W6v2's away SPL v SPL...about equal in the SQL department.
You honestly think the 3500's can compete with the w6v2s in SQ? The w6v2 is one of the best SQ drivers ever made, and you even said yourself "3500's are good for daily drivers, if you where looking for SQ i would have reccomended the 9100 or 2500. but w/e". Make up your mind, because you keep contradicting yourself.
__________________
'01 Black Sentra SE
Weapon-R intake, HS header, HKS catback, ES motor mounts, B&M short shifter, Tein coilovers
Alpine 9835, Adire Koda 6.1, Adire Brahma 15, Arc 2100cxl, Linear Power 2.2hv, Cadence ZRS-8

'05 Silver WRX STi
Injen SES Downpipe, HKS Carbon-Ti catback, Cobb Stage 2 Tune, TiC Super Shifter, TiC Klunk Killer, Tein springs, Nitto NT555R Drag Radials
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