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Old 07-22-2004, 08:13 PM   #31
Bad_Bird'99
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Hey guys, I have a brilliant idea! Let's stop debating if a camaro or firebird is better, afterall, they are both great GM products. So in theory, let's just take out the ricers together as american muscle fans.

-Matt
By the way, I have a 3.8 liter Firebird so yes, I am neutral on the topic. Have a good one!
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Old 07-23-2004, 08:03 AM   #32
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Re: camoro or firebird

Bad Bird,
The debate is not about the later Cheviacs and T/A wannabes. It's about the difference between a Pontiac and a Chevy. In the muscle car era, they were two completely different packages, sharing only fundemental parameters, glass and some sheet metal.
Pontiac guys get defensive because we've always been in the "shadow" of the Chevy, being treated like red-headed stepchildren of GM. Chevy guys get defensive because they're always looking over their shoulder, wondering "Who ARE those guys?" Chevy guys are also nerveous because of the resurgance of Pontiac power. In the muscle car era, Pontiac led the way. In fact, the last NHRA fuel class champ that wasn't a hemi, was indeed a Pontiac (Arnie Beswick, Funny Car Champ, 1971). And that was a true Pontiac V8, not the BBC bottom half/Pontiac top half that dominates NHRA Pro Stock today.
Only a fool would say you can't make a Chevy outrun a Pontiac at the highest level, but the same fool would say you can't make a Pontiac a VERY capable street performer, making more power at usable speeds, than a small block.
Your '99 doesn't count, as it has the corporate engine, and the only true identity the car has is the body. Same is true of the new GTO, though it's quite a capable performer right out of the box. It's a bit lighter than your F-body.
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Old 07-23-2004, 01:13 PM   #33
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i do belive that my question was which could be made drivable with $5k$ so you guys can stop this crap. you guys can constantly tell eachother which one is better but you both wont listen so just stop.

i agree with the bird lets dis on the ricers they think there the shit anyways. oh and i have a question. my bro thinks his eclipse ('90 runing 15 psi of boost on full exhuast) can take a 1989 mustang with full exhuast and 2 grand under the hood? dont start going off on this one too guys it just makes thing easier.thnks
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Old 07-23-2004, 05:18 PM   #34
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Re: camoro or firebird

Then why did you mention it if you don't want them to fight? That was a stupid idea.
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Old 07-24-2004, 01:28 AM   #35
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true dont answer my other question we will find out tommorow
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Old 08-04-2004, 06:39 PM   #36
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Re: camoro or firebird

Cuda and all others, expecially the girl who does not like BOP350's (giggle!) go get a Camaro. Save the Firebird for someone who knows what they are doing and can appreciate what they have. These message boards are like CB's in the 70's, everyone gets to be smart and georgous over the air until you see them in person and realize they are 500 lbs with missing teeth. Alot of people find it easy to be expert at something and can give advice without ever having to see or talk to the person again.
I won't attempt to defend Mr. Pbody here because quite frankly he does not need it. All the information he has posted has been on the money 100% correct. The Super Turbine 300 is a two speed tranny similar only the Powerglide in the fact that is a two speed. Different case, converter, clutch packs, etc. And yes a ST300 is whats in the 68 Temptest if it came with a V8. Powerglide has become a generic term like "Coke", I have been guilty myself of calling any two speed a powerglide.
A word of advice, Check and Verify, take all information with a grain of salt, research it and verify it's correctness. Oh yea, and learn to recognize a true expert in his field not a computer geek or armchair mechanic.
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Old 08-04-2004, 09:16 PM   #37
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So what does the dash of a 70 stage one look like?? It will eat any 70 pontiac or chevy. 400 ponchos are strong motors. I personally feel pontiacs only seem to run good with pontiac parts in them. Don't think I've ever seen an lt1 in a 69 camaro. Thought they came out in 1970. Didn't run as good as the ones in the vettes. Those lt1 vettes in 1970 would eat any 400 firebird.
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Old 08-06-2004, 09:48 AM   #38
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Re: camoro or firebird

Vinman, either your information is ancient or you simply aren't paying attention. Pontiac is NOT the also ran or point-prover car like the Olds and Buick. Right from the beginning of GM's involvement in racing, dating back to the mid-50s, Pontiac has been a dead-serious performance company. Contrary to popular belief, the most sophisticated pieces for racing made by GM in the muscle car era were not Chevrolet. But, due to the monetery power of being the top seller, some of the best Pontiac stuff was suppressed by GM with Chevrolet Division pressing it. The Ram Air V project was killed shortly after the '68 GTO equipped with one went mid-11s on street tires. The hemi project was not even allowed out of the lab, but did manage to make a splash by making the cover of Hot Rod in March, 1970. The 455 SD was the last gasp of muscle from GM in the '70s. Ther current BBC heads used in Pro Stock (and dominating) come from Pontiac Engineering. The Brodix Track 1s from the '80s in Cup cars came from Pontiac Engineering.
I know I've heard the stories about Stage 1s in the past. I even saw a couple of them in SoCal in '74. Neither of them could touch my '70 Judge w/Ram Air III. While there may have been one or two Stage 1s that were fast, the majority were not. While there may have been some GTOs that weren't fast, the majority were. And there were 10 Ram Air cars made for every Stage 1. There were 10 GTOs made for every Ram Air car. Do the math. A low-production monster doesn't qualify. .
In today's muscle car world, nothing is as it was. Chevies almost never have iron heads on them. Little by little, that's happening with Pontiacs, too. There are currrently four different companies supplying aftermarket aluminum heads for the Pontiac, both for street and competition use. How many aftermarket heads are there for the Buick 455? I know of zero. I would like to know, though, so if you know of one, please post it. And there are more and more Pontiacs coming back to the track with the Pontiac engine, as new competitivve parts are provided by the aftermarket. The Pontiac has been out of production as long as the Olds and Buick. Why are there not a boat load of goodies for the Buick if has such great potential? Because it doesn't. T/A Performance in Phoenix makes some great stuff for the 455 Buick, but their cars are a second slower than equally-pumped Pontiacs. Mondello is still beating the Olds horse. You can get more from the Olds than the Buick. And there are exceptions to every rule. I have no doubt, somewhere, someone had a Stage 1 that went 12s with no changes but tires. I've not seen it. But I've also seen literally dozens of GTOs that would do it. Don't foolish about performance. If you like the Buick, great! Maybe you can find one and save it for posterity. But don't let your emotions and "brand loyalty" cloud your judgement. I love GTOs and am a loyal Pontiac fan, but I'm not stupid about Chevrolet or certain Ford and Mope offerings. I know one can build a small block to be very good, and for less moey. I also know, to get a small block to make power at street speeds, like an oval-port BBC or a Pontiac, it takes a TON of money.
One last thing. I've built several 455 Buicks, and even more Olds. So it isn't out of ignorance I say the things I say. It's from real life experience, and not what I heard from my uncles's friends cousin...
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Old 08-06-2004, 06:58 PM   #39
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I'm not trying to start a pissing war.I had a 79 formula with a stock 455 out of a 71 firebird. That was the best running big block with low compression I ever owned. No other could touch it. It just seemed to me to me the engine pontiac built ran better than being tinkered with. If it was tinkered with, it had to have parts from pontiac. I might have prehistoric thinking, oh well. If there are great aftermarket pontiac parts out there that's great, they don't make the motor any more. Sorry, buick stage ones used to beat up on all things I ever saw , including hemi's. I'm not saying the ponchos didn't run( and I have seen a lot of guys that do) just saying they're few and far between. Buick, mopar and olds big blocks are gone,,,,,,, so is pontiac.How much is in a pontiac pro stock motor???
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Old 08-09-2004, 08:20 AM   #40
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Re: camoro or firebird

Vinman, only in the past three weeks, a new book was released concerning the building of a "max performance" Pontiac. When I spoke to the publisher, they wanted to know what was up with the "Pontiac Crowd". Apparently, the book was sold out before it ever left the dock (5,000 in the first printing, 2nd priniting has already been approved). They said the only book they've ever sold any quicker was the one on the new 4.6 Ford DOHC. Now, THAT'S a current 'performance" application.
As the conversation progressed, something was said to the effect of Pontiacs being in the same category as the Olds and Buicks, as "point provers" and "also rans". They accept now, all the talking going on over the past 25 years (since the Pontiac V8 was removed from production) about how Pontiac would still be a competitive race engine hinged on the production of current technolgy parts. That is now coming back around,as there are plenty of aftermarket race-only parts for the engine.
Also, many of the Chevy-powered GTOs and Firebirds from the "dark ages" (of no parts) are coming back to Pontiac power.
I would have to dispute the claim a Stage 1 would beat up on a Hemi, an LS-7 OR a Ram Air V. Otherwise, Buick would still hold records in the stocker classes. You know, like the AMC AMX?
A little trivia. What powered the last NHRA fuel class champ that was NOT Hemi powered? Yup, a Pontiac (Arnie Beswick, Funny Car champ, 1971). Nothing Chevrolet, Buick OR Olds had the power potential of the Ram Air V "Tunnel port". The heads on Arnie's '63 421 SD were those!
Current offerings from Pontiac Division include the heads used by the top Pro Stock teams. Yes, it's true, the bottom half is a BBC, but it takes some forward-looking engineers to squeeze the most out of 'em!
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