Bad cat or not?

[tripletdaddy]

Pretty pipes and pix. Is that stainless? That yellow stuff in them you asked is from manufacturing processes. I've seen it before in exhaust stuff. I get REAL uncomfortable with sensitive, expensive parts that are contacting or near contacting stuff that you know is NOT going to hold rock solid still. The wiring might be all right, hard to tell, could add tape, loom or pull it away if concerned about rubbing. You may be able to find some exhaust manifold to pipe spacers that would lower the whole pipe to give you a little more clearance, although I may be just wishfully thinking they exist. Or get a really big wrecking bar or digging iron and pry on the pipe to get better clearance.

In the last pic with the o2 sensor touching something, is that really the rack, because I see something parallel to the rack that the sensor is touching? How do these holes compare to the oem holes in their alignment? I'd hate for you to deal with broken o2s later and have to drop the pipe again and also jeopardize the o2 warranty. You may try calling the pipe people. Do they expect oem o2s to fit with their setup? Is there a difference in o2 length, oem vs. what you have? I know, I know. It's just one more headache to this never ending migraine you've been working on.

[searcherrr]

I think I'm going to refocus this issue back to why this thread began. lol - I see I've gotten off track here.

I'm going to wait till the NEW O2's heat up and engine gets to operating temp/fast idle and see if I have eliminated my "almost stall" engine problem right after the radiator fans turn off. I can run the engine fine without damaging the new O2 sensor in question. If the stall thing has gone away then I know at least all the money I spent on the O2s actually did something.

Also, I have found a procedure online for cleaning O2's. Since the O2 is not a moving part I highly doubt the old ones are bad, but just DIRTY from external dirt/funk and exhaust gas and fuel dumped onto the inside part of the sensor. If the engine runs properly with the new O2's then I'm definitely going to thoroughly clean out (and let dry in an a/c room overnight) the old OEM O2's. I will reinstall them and test the engine for that "almost stall" condition again and see what happens.

The reason I'm reversing on my "all new parts" thing now is because it makes sense to me that the O2's are not bad... but just dirty like many other things we're told WE MUST REPLACE at X miles. Its all marketing gimmicks. A byproduct here of putting the OEM's back in after cleaning them is that I don't think the rear upstream O2 will touch the steering rack metal any longer due to the size difference in the top caps on the Bosch aftermarket sensors and the OEMs that I noticed tonight. The OEM top caps are smaller in diameter than the Bosch ones.

tripletdaddy - LoL - I just saw your response as I was typing this post. Some of your questions are answered above in this post.

I too had thought of pipe spacers, but anything like that is gonna throw off the rest of the Ypipe bolting on and the alignment of the rear cat-back exhaust which I'm currently not even sure yet if its going to match up as it should anyway cause I've been being lazy due to the negativity from all these problems. lol

I have contacted Magnaflow and they've opened an investigation. I sent them edited photos pointing at the problems in their pipe. Yes that is STAINLESS - TEE HEE. I had to actually cut a small piece of metal off the stability bracket to get it to go flush with the bolt hole. The rear bank manifold pipe (problem O2 pipe) is actually slightly off to the left (perhaps 1/2") from where it needs to be unless you wanna look at it like the front pipe is off to the right too far. I had bolted up the front pipe "slightly" first to have an anchor point holding it up as I began to thread the rear pipe and I had to kinda force the rear pipe over to get the flange around the pipe and flange bolts. After threading the rear on (loading the O2 first the 2nd time arond) a little bitty bit I went back up front and tightened it all the way and then back to the back and did the stability bolt last. The O2 mount hole is clearly off in positioning when compared to the OEM Ypipe. You can see in the pics below. I just hope Magnaflow will help me out soon and whether or not they do I'm gonna proceed as I said above and see where it takes me. If it takes me to sh!tland I'll just have to put the OEM Ypipe back on.

Photos I sent Magnaflow:








I could be wrong about the "rack" being what the sensor is touching, but make no mistake it is metal and doesn't move at all. I'm pretty sure its the rack though as I traced the lines when I was under there and it looked like it was connected to the steering system. Above the metal the sensor is touching is the frame so whatever that metal is in front of the frame metal is what its touching.

[tripletdaddy]

I was only thinking about dropping the pipe a half inch at the manifolds. The pipework I've done has usually allowed for that small of a mod as long as there is room. Usually the problems I've run into are new parts are wrong length, shape, and attachment locations like hangers and o2 holes, which you may all three problems. It always seems to be a compromise on fit requiring shifting it around to get it to work with the oem setup. So, I think you have more flexibility than you realize if you do feel you should drop the pipe just enough to have a safe amount of space. Oh, and btw, I think what I was referring to right next to the o2 sensor and rack may be the cross frame member, which I think the rack is bolted to, as seen in your last pic posted.

Maybe Wiswind can address this, because he's the one who has described the operation of the o2 sensor as a chemical reaction to the exhaust components. What I wonder is, if the o2 sensor can be used up, ie. run out of reactant to the exhaust? I don't know, but even the cat can theoretically run out of reactant, I think the platinum, and no longer do its job.

[searcherrr]

Breakth or not here I come.

Know those lil plastic protective caps that come over the sensor element on O2's? Well, I filled'em with CRC electronic parts cleaner and set the old OEM O2's in the caps so that the fluid level would go just above the sensor element when the caps are on. I'm gonna let'em sit for an hour or so..... perhaps till morning. Then remove. Perhaps squirt out the holes to get rid of residual debris. Let sit to dry. If the new O2's turn out to eliminate my "almost stall rough idle" problem I'll install the old O2's and see if the problem remains solved or if I just broke 4 old O2 sensors. People in other forums have successfully cleaned their O2's with the electronics parts cleaner I'm recommending, but none of them have soaked them like I have.

TIP: The front upstream O2 sensor is prone to getting the dirtiest. In my case that entire area up front at the frame where the connector is and the sensor top by the wires were all covered with sludge and debris. The top of this sensor at the wires was COMPLETELY CAKED with hardened black soot.

Ironically this was the ONLY sensor that LOOKED questionable to me on the sensor end as it was almost bone white whereas all other 3 were clean at their tops/wires and the sensor guard was pretty free of debris or much color (black or white). I scraped the white debris all the way around the sensor to loosen it to allow the CRC stuff to get in there.

Since I know now the O2 sensors use external air for comparison outside the wire end of the sensor I believe the front one hadn't been working right for a long time.

I wasn't satisfied till I saw "black" around the wire seals at the top of the sensor so I squirt them enough times alternating with a toothbrush till they looked new.

Interestingly enough, I noticed the old OEM Rear Upstream sensor has a dent in it at the top near the wires. FUNNY HUH? It would seem logical that this happened one day or multiple days when the O2 must've hit that metal in the photos though that seems odd that it would've been able to reach that metal with the OEM pipe.

[tripletdaddy]

Is it even physically possible for the oem pipe to have allowed it to hit? If it is a single dent, I would expect that to have occurred from original installation by Ford or subsequent work in that vicinity. If it doesn't look like it was dented once, but several times, then it could have happened while running. It could have also been dinged up several times from repairs to the exhaust, the manifolds, the rack, trans, etc next to it.

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by tripletdaddy

I was only thinking about dropping the pipe a half inch at the manifolds. The pipework I've done has usually allowed for that small of a mod as long as there is room. Usually the problems I've run into are new parts are wrong length, shape, and attachment locations like hangers and o2 holes, which you may all three problems. It always seems to be a compromise on fit requiring shifting it around to get it to work with the oem setup. So, I think you have more flexibility than you realize if you do feel you should drop the pipe just enough to have a safe amount of space. Oh, and btw, I think what I was referring to right next to the o2 sensor and rack may be the cross frame member, which I think the rack is bolted to, as seen in your last pic posted.

Maybe Wiswind can address this, because he's the one who has described the operation of the o2 sensor as a chemical reaction to the exhaust components. What I wonder is, if the o2 sensor can be used up, ie. run out of reactant to the exhaust? I don't know, but even the cat can theoretically run out of reactant, I think the platinum, and no longer do its job.

Yeah when I said "frame" I meant the cross frame member. You just had the "official" word for it. lol

Dude, I dunno ...I mean these companies obviously spend several thousands of dollars fabricating metal and tooling for these shapes. You would think after all that R&D that they'd turn out a product damn near 1 or 2mm within OEM spec. I mean how could you miss this stuff after actually quality testing it on the vehicle?????? Might've been one of those things where its like "Don't say anything so we can get this out."

I'm too tired to look for spacers, but honestly I don't like the idea of some loose piece of pipe sqeezed in there..... another chance for an exhaust leak. Still it could work if it exists.

All and all I'm liking the sound of the Magnaflow Ypipe and if I can put my old cleaned O2 sensors back on there and have it work right I'll do it. My main concern is where the rear Ypipe flange will go to the Borla setup as apparently the Borla setup is expecting to connect to a straight ended pipe with a clamp. I can probably finagle something with the old flex-pipe, but man I'll just be so ready for this to be over with..... oh well.

Aside from that..... I've never read/seen anything about O2 sensors "running out".... but I have read stuff about O2 sensor fouling/poisoning from fuel getting on them from a misfire etc... which is exactly the condition I had for over 100 miles of driving home. Still I do not know if that renders a sensor unusable for good or just unusable during the misfire condition and if you clean it its good to go (or not)? I'll soon find out.

I mispoke earlier about the OEM O2 sensor dent. When I went back in the garage later last night I noticed it was the front bank O2 upstream sensor and not the rear one (I have'm labeled). Oops. I can see that one having been hit a lot. So xinay on the theory of the OEM one hitting the rack.

[wiswind]

If it were my vehicle....I would put motorcraft oxygen sensors in the upstream position.

I have no experience with cleaning oxygen sensors.....so I don't know how well it works.
From what I have read.....an oxygen sensor begins to switch more slowly as it ages......
The faster switching speed is only important for the upstream sensors.....as the downstream ones switch slowly anyhow.......due to the fact that they are reacting to how the catalytic converter is working.
I changed my upstream oxygen sensors somwhere after 150K miles.....and I got no change in performance or fuel economy (both were just fine).
Mine had very slight green stains from coolant.

From what you will see in posts here.....the oxygen sensors on the windstar are VERY reliable.

I had to cut or bend the support bracket at the transmission location on my Walker direct fit unit......same reason as you.
Not a big issue......if everything else works out.

You WILL want a flex section at the back of the "Y" pipe.
This is because (as you have noticed) the "Y" pipe is mounted in a rigid fashion to the Motor.....no flex point at all......it moves with the motor/transaxle all as 1 solid unit.

The flex pipe is the ONLY point of flex.....which is why it is importand......otherwise there will be stress on the whole unit from that point.

[searcherrr]

Yeap.... you hit that flex pipe on a nose Wiswind. For some reason I thought the new cat back was gonna extend all the way to the Ypipe, but apparently after installing "most of that" today I realized I was in a predicament. I have sliced my Flex pipe in half and was trying to cut the end of it off the old OEM setup for reuse thinking that part may reach the cat back setup, but it probably won't. I'm probably going to opt to buy a new one otherwise I'll have to have someone reweld the one I have which will not remove from the old YPipe and the joining bolts destroyed two reciprocating saw blades. Must be made of Superman metal or something.

O2 Sensor TEST - DANT DANT DAAaaa - or I should say "Engine tries to stall test". Well after all of this debating and good useful discussion it seems its all good for another time because the new O2's (all 4) did SQUAT to help my engine almost stall problem which I believe is related/connected to my poor MPG.

I will be carefully and PROMPTLY removing the new O2's and returning them after a lil light clean-up to make'em look good'n new.

I will then put the old O2's back in after this last test with the new O2's and the freshly cleaned MAS (see below). If I continue to see bad MPG Wiswind I will get the motorcraft upstream ones as you recommend. FYI - If you haven't seen my Magnaflow thread..... MAGNAFLOW has OFFERED TO REMAKE THE YPIPE FOR ME AT NO COST TO ME!! LOL - Though if the OEM O2's back in the new Magnaflow Ypipe keep it from touching then it will be a moot point.

MAF/MAS/AFM CLEANING - I probably didn't cover all the acronyms for it, but the only other item thats relatively easy to reach and could be a good culprit for bad MPG is of course the air flow meter (sensor). I recently about 7 or 8 months back had replaced it with an Ebay used one and at the time I did not know about MAS CRC Cleaner. I picked up a can at Autozone the same day I got my AeroKroil at Napa. Tonight as the new O2's failed to impress me I have the MAS apart and ran that cleaner through it. If you look through the lil hole inside the MAS you can see the sensor elements themselves. Apparently they are supposed to be as close to WHITE/GRAY/SILVER color as possible. One of mine was completely black and the other was kinda brownish. Following the instructions on the can of MAS CRC Cleaner now has me with two completely white sensor elements. I came in to write this post and letting it all dry up before reassembling at 11pm at night. Gonna run another test to operating temp and see what happens.

If this does not cure the "almost stall" behavior I will be dumping the van back at the shop.

Side note on the Borla Cat Back Exhaust: Instead of an inline resonator the Borla system comes with a small muffler for the rear of the van. For those that have the tow package installed (LIKE ME!; which is ironically a reason why I wanted the upgraded exhaust) the rear muffler hanger gets in the way with the hitch frame. I could probably drill a 3/4" hole in the hitch frame so the hanger would go through over to the left to meet with the rubber hanger thing which normally would go there with the hardware Borla provided. I don't like drilling through the hitch frame as I would imagine it could possibly weaken it.... but I bet thats pretty doubtful. Still I would rather modify the exhaust setup than the hitch frame so it looks like I may cut off the hanger to a certain point and rig up some kind of tensioned rubber hanger of my own.

[searcherrr]

Well this thread is pretty much over. Feels like its time to start a new one and focus on the problem at hand now that I've ruled out a bad cat for sure and O2's.

One thing thats got me thinking though. I'm correlating the engine almost stalling with the bad MPG.... what if they aren't related? I'm gonna put the old O2's in there tomorrow. If it runs the same I'll return the new ones unless I broke the old ones during the cleaning.

On to the new thread: Attempts stall, Idle Pulses 600-800 rpms, horrible MPG