VTEC vs. SR20DE

[CHRIS200T]

Originally posted by Morpheus XIII
I, for one, have really abandoned any commentary to this thread. The world already knows about Honda's mastery to natural aspirated prowess; after all where do they get their basis for their Formula One effort?

On the other hand, Nissan has always been a name for hardened blocks and high pressures; namely turbochargers. I must applaud them for endeavoring into foreign territories. The SR16VE may not be the best high strung n/a motor, nor the most efficient turbo mill for their standards, but the SR16's block is still an offspring of the SR20DET, and does provide forced induction capabilities. Then again, this does seem to be a n/a thread.

That is true! VVL's are vary easy turbo and thay will hold the HP over 400 Wheel HP on a compleatly stock bottom end Maybe even closer to 500 . Personaly seen 450 WHP stock bottom end from the SR motors.
Hondas would be lucky to see 1/2 that on a turbo stock bottom end.
Mater of fact the VVL Blocks have all the stuff you need for factory turbo hookup's everything on the DET is on the VE blcok except its pluged . Takes all of 1 hr to drill everything you need. Overlap is kinda high for turbo on a VVL..

PS: Does anyone have cam spec's on B16's or B18 motor's I have all specs on VVL's and want to compair.

Much Thanks

[Moppie]

I have heard of stock B16's and B18s making over 400hp on stock bottom ends, but do to it propelry and safely, then really do need block gruards fitted, along with new rods. (the crank is more than strong enough though).

The SR block design is surperior to B series if forced induction is your goal. However I believe Honda's head, cam, piston, rod and crank design is far better if natural asperation is your goal.

Even the most basic knowledge of both engine designs should tell you this, and its only possible to argue otherwise out of ignorance.


CHRIS200T There are sites with the specs for the B series cams out there, they will not be as wild as the SR16ve design, although the B16b and B18c cams will come close.

Try posting in the Honda tech forum, Im sure someone there will be able to point you in the right direction.

[CHRIS200T]

Check this out!!! Almost Compeatly bone stock VVL Dyno numbers

Ghetto intake and cracked header. Other than that its stock from ECU to exhaust. all stock.


SR20VE Stock VVL Dyno Chart

If I remember correctly B18C's put down 144 WHP Stock
and Hype-R's put down 160 WHP stock and the SR20VE
is puting down 176.6 HP with a busted Intake and Small
Header form a DE motor.

I am impressed. I am sure with a good CAI and good 2.5" exhaust and some N1 CAM's and some dyno tuning for fule map's this car should hit right around 200 WHP. with just basic bolt on's

[Moppie]

Very nice, but remember that its a 2.0L compared to the Honda engines, and it is deffintly running much much wilder profile on the high speed cam lobes than the B18c's.
If you see a good dyno plot for a b16a or B18c the power curve is much smother, there isnt the same very sharp power jump thats apprent from the SR20. The Torque curve from the honda engines is even more impresive in how flat it is, especialy when compared to the SR20.
And notice the small dip at change over, (about 4,800rpm) something almost eradicated in the later versions of the B16a and the B18c, and now totaly eradicated in the new K20 engines.
Even in the early B16a's its not that severe.

So what does this show? well yes the SR20VE does make an impresive amount of hp from the box, and I would love to put one in my kit car. (see link in sig).
However its clearly not as well developed as a street engine when compared to Honda's B series engines, its much more peaky, shows a much more noticeable change when the high speed cam lobes come in, has a noticable power dip at change over.

And notice the torque drop off at 6,000rpm!!!! damn, thats bad, I only just saw it.
My car peaks at about 7,200 and donst start a noticeable drop off till well past 8,000rpm.

So basicly the SR20 even with some clearly wilder cams than what Honda use might make more hp, but it dosnt seem nearly as refined.
Infact I wouldn't want it as a regular car engine, be nice in a race car, but sounds like trouble and a pain in traffic. No wonder they come with a CVT on the primera.

And you mention 200whp with a some simply bolt ons?
oh wow weeeeeeee! and so what?
I know of B16a's making 200whp with cams and tuning.
And its even easier to do with a B18c. Infact adding ITR cams, pistons and tweaking the fuel and ignition timing will yield over 215hp at the crank. Think what that could become with some simple aftermarket cams?
I know of over 300hp crank hp being made.


OK, I think thats enough ranting,
Iv found a dyno of a USDM Civic Si, remember these are only a B16a (1600cc) and the most pathetic version ever made (except the one sold in europe in the early 4g Civic VTi) only just making 160hp and suffering from emissions regs, and Honda not wanting to be labeled as Hot hatchs in the US, but not wanting to miss a sales opertunity either.
(my car is more higly tuned, and its nearly 10yrs older)

The plot shows a before and after install of JRSC supercharger. so ignore the higher lines.
But notice the flat torue curve, and constant slope of the power curve.
And notice the torque drop off dosnt begin till 7,500rpm.

[Moppie]

oh and thank you Chris!

You seem to be the only person here who actualy knows anything about the srVE engines, and is prepared to help the rest of us learn about them.
They sound even more misunderstood than VTEC, but are certinaly capable of making some very good hp numbers, not bad for an engine made in limited numbers and sold to a small market, and by a company thats used turbo's on most of its performance cars. (and is now a world leader accordingly in turbo technology)

[91HBSi]

This is a very informative thread. Just want you guys who have contributed to it to know that I appreciate it. Now that the flaming has stopped it is even enjoyable

[CHRIS200T]

Originally posted by Moppie
And notice the torque drop off at 6,000rpm!!!! damn, thats bad, I only just saw it.
My car peaks at about 7,200 and donst start a noticeable drop off till well past 8,000rpm.

Ya with 1.6L N1 Cam's in a 2.0 VVL peak power is at around 7700 RPM and power starts to fall off at 8600 RPM

Originally posted by Moppie

And you mention 200whp with a some simply bolt ons?
oh wow weeeeeeee! and so what?
I know of B16a's making 200whp with cams and tuning.
And its even easier to do with a B18c. Infact adding ITR cams, pistons and tweaking the fuel and ignition timing will yield over 215hp at the crank. Think what that could become with some simple aftermarket cams?
I know of over 300hp crank hp being made.

This statement is compleatly BS
No stock bottom B16a can come close to 200WHP with just Bolt ons and Cams..

My step brother had a built 11.5:1 B18C bottom end with a B16 Head Civic Type R Cam's Type R manifold ported head from his buddy who has done heads for cosworth for the past 11 years a HiTech Header and Mugen ECU on SSR Type X's and made 201 WHP on a 1.8L .. so for you claim of 200 HP on a B16 is BS.


I have seen 300 HP out of SR20 motors N/A before.

[Moppie]

Originally posted by CHRIS200T


This statement is compleatly BS
No stock bottom B16a can come close to 200WHP with just Bolt ons and Cams..

No bolt ons, just cams and piggy back ECU to tune the A/F ratio and timing.
A B16a will happily rev to 9,000rpm for everyday use, and is good for 10,000 if you plan on regular rebuilds, say after every race
season.
The bottom end of a B series engine is very strong, and will handle over 200hp with out much trouble. Being an engine designed for N/A they do certianly require stronger rods if you want to add lots of boost, but even then the crank has plenty of strength in it.

And porting a B16a head is a tricky bussiness, they really dont need it unless you want to make extremes of power. (and how do I know your bro's mate really worked for cosworth porting heads? oh wow! I currently work for the only Lotus service center in NZ, does that make me special? no its just means I get to fix $200,000 cars, but have someone who knows what thier doing standing over me.)

Right now there are cams avliable off the shelf from Spoon or Crower or others that will make 200hp at the crank on a B16a. You only need an extra 25hp to make that 200 at the wheels. And with some custom cams, and good tuning it can be done. all on stock intake, headers and bottom end. and all from a lowely 1600cc.
From a B18c its even easier, and 200hp at the wheels can be done with aftermarket off the shelf cams.


And dont accuse me of bullshitting. It only brings the tone of the thread down, and actualy works against any arguments you maybe making.
I was enjoying learning something about the SR-VE engines from you, but it seems your not as interested to prehaps learn from me.

[CHRIS200T]

Originally posted by Moppie

And dont accuse me of bullshitting. It only brings the tone of the thread down, and actualy works against any arguments you maybe making.
I was enjoying learning something about the SR-VE engines from you, but it seems your not as interested to prehaps learn from me.

I know almost as much about honda's as I do nissan's. Being your stuck in NZ where no one is doing much with honda's how could you know anymore then what people tell you. From what I see your car is bone stock. Anything I don't know I can find out 1st hand by going to my bro's shop and work with him on stuff. There allways doing trick stuff to B & H Honda motor's. Thay got some cool motor config's 2.0L non strocked B18C Block's Some custom sleave's that allow for some fat sized pistons bolt ons and Civic Hype-R Cam's thay mannaged 225 WHP for customer's dayily driver's. Now thats a 2.0L vs a SR20VE it will be hard for me to find 225 WHP at this time out of a SR20VE motor. Sometimes I think about buying a 92-95 Civic CX and doing one of this motor's but it is expencive compaired to Nissan's that SR20VE I droped in and it only cost 700 bucks for a 177 WHP swap. You can't come close here in the state's for that. Avarage Swap for a B16 is like 2400-2800 bucks.

Dollor for Dollor right now the Nissan dominate's in my book. Even Turbo swap's are less then B16 swap's

[Moppie]

Originally posted by CHRIS200T


I know almost as much about honda's as I do nissan's. Being your stuck in NZ where no one is doing much with honda's how could you know anymore then what people tell you. From what I see your car is bone stock.

Everything else you said made sense, but please dont try and insult my intelligence.
If your as old as you sound then I have been working on and modifying cars long before you ever learned to drive.


And as for NZ not doing much with Honda's? Mate you need to get out a little bit more. There are plenty of fast Honda's down here, Inlcuding localy made Turbo kits that are not only half the price of the crap coming out of the US, but also make more power.
You have to remember that we are over loaded with cheap imports, and have a strong national history of being successful in motorsport.
Ever heard of a Bruce Mclaren? or since your a Nissan freak how about Steve Millan? or his brother Rod?
And whos that young guy who keeps winning all the indy car race's? whats his name, Scott Dickson. Yip, them and countless others are all Kiwis, and its a fact that modern motorsport would be nothing like it is today if it wasnt for the input of Kiwi engine builders, chassis designers and enginers.
Theres a good reason EVERY single F1 team today has at least one Kiwi member. :finger4:

[CHRIS200T]

Originally posted by Moppie


Everything else you said made sense, but please dont try and insult my intelligence.
If your as old as you sound then I have been working on and modifying cars long before you ever learned to drive.


And as for NZ not doing much with Honda's? Mate you need to get out a little bit more. There are plenty of fast Honda's down here, Inlcuding localy made Turbo kits that are not only half the price of the crap coming out of the US, but also make more power.
You have to remember that we are over loaded with cheap imports, and have a strong national history of being successful in motorsport.
Ever heard of a Bruce Mclaren? or since your a Nissan freak how about Steve Millan? or his brother Rod?
And whos that young guy who keeps winning all the indy car race's? whats his name, Scott Dickson. Yip, them and countless others are all Kiwis, and its a fact that modern motorsport would be nothing like it is today if it wasnt for the input of Kiwi engine builders, chassis designers and enginers.
Theres a good reason EVERY single F1 team today has at least one Kiwi member. :finger4:

Yaaa Yaa well keep strocken yourself some more. If imports where so dam fast down there. Then why is there no word of any fast cars from there. Turbo kits making more power down there then here. Bolt on turbo kit. Well my "BOLT ON Turbo kit made 500WHP" Lets see a Honda do that on a stock bottom end. You can talk about fast car's all you want to bad you don't have one. That must suck looking to others to go fast..

[Morpheus XIII]

Oooook, I think we need a breather.

Just an observation:
Now that nearly all automakers are using some sort of variable valve/cam timing, does the future hold a standardized place for this type of technology? Will we be seeing the abundance of the letter "V" from here on?

And how much more powerful can variably timed engines become? It does seem to have its limitations; after all it isn't a power adder, but rather, a power finder. In the end all hidden spots of the powerband will be discovered and engineers will need to look elsewhere. Forced induction and large displacement undoubtedly yield much more power; I suppose we could really use some of that alien metal they found in the "Predator's" blade weapon which was supposedly light as a feather and strong as steel. Imagine if all rotating mass was made of this! :alien: Who knows, maybe science will somehow synthesize a compound with these qualities, just as carbon fiber took the industry by surprise.

Ok, that's enough automobile philosophizing for now...

[Moppie]

Originally posted by Morpheus XIII
Oooook, I think we need a breather.


Ok, that's enough automobile philosophizing for now...

A breather? I think Chris knows what will happen if he get's carried away.
Besides such ignorance can be fun to play with.

Anyway, Morph you opened up so many potential discussions in your last paragragh I dont really know where to begin.

Your most definitly right in Variable valve lift and timeing being the way of the future, and Eeven with a 12yr lead in R&D Honda will soon lose any advantage it once had in terms of marketing power.
Especialy when you look at the amount of money a company the size of Toyota with the backing of GM could put into resurching it further.
Prehaps something as light as a feather but as strong as steel isnt so far away.
(or prehaps ceramic engines are getting closer to a production reality.)

I feel a thread on Automotive philosophising is long over due.
So if those with a mature, profesonial and enlightened attitude towards all things automotive would care to make thier way to the philosophy forum I might just start one.

Morh, I hope you dont mind if I use your last paragraph as a starter?

[Morpheus XIII]

Of course. I consider anything I put up on AF free game.

(heading over to the philosophizing forum )

[THE4TH]

you guys can argue till your blue in the face... as it seems you already are.. both honda and nissan have their own ass kickin stuff...
all i know is i never seen any nissan look as sweet as a nice 2003 Acura NSX........mmmmhhhh mhhhhhh