A new noise coming from engine compartment

[tempfixit]

In the video without belt on I noticed at about 30 seconds a pulley is turning (not the harmonic balancer) by the oil filter., could it be the culpirt?

[serge_saati]

Originally Posted by tempfixit

In the video without belt on I noticed at about 30 seconds a pulley is turning (not the harmonic balancer) by the oil filter., could it be the culpirt?

It's not because you see a pulley turning while you hear the noise that you should think that's the source of the noise. You can't see a noise, you can just ear it.
An it's the crankshaft pulley. The harmonic balancer (vibration damper) is located behind it.

Originally Posted by 12Ounce

If your chain is the noise maker, it could just be the take-up/tensioner device. They are sometimes defective and fail. I'm not sure, don't remember about the one in the 3.8, if this tensioner has a hydraulic component or not ... it may just be a spring. If it does have a hydraulic component, that might answer why it is sensitive to oil-weight and temperature. ??

Yes there's an hydraulic tensioner for the timing chain of the 3.8L. In bottom of the picture.

[tempfixit]

After watching video again you are correct it is the cranshaft pulley, I thought it was still the idler pulley still turning somehow. My mistake.

[serge_saati]

12Ounce, does the Mobil1 oil is the best? I thought it was Castrol Edge with "Titanium" fluid technology - synthetic. Do you use Mobil1 oil filter too?

Do you really plan to make your Windstar reach 500K miles? How many times did you replace/rebuilt your transmission up to now?

[12Ounce]

What is the best oil? What is the one and true religion? I have no idea.

I use Mobil1 after making some "study" years ago, ....but now, years later, its just habit. It seems to work very well for me, I'm amazed at the little metal wear I see on internal parts. And I rely heavily on oil tests done by Blackstone Labs that keep me on course.

There may be "better" oils ... but I don't know why I would change at this point. I use the Purolator PL series oil fiter.

[olopezm]

I HATE IT!

Originally Posted by serge_saati

No, I still ear the same noise after you removed the belt and even when engine is cold. Althought it's quiter than when it's cold.

So it's really in the engine. I still think it could be the timing chain or the lifters. But I think it's more likely the timing chain.

Thanks serge, that's the HUGE difference between an experienced ear and a beginner's, and if you add to that the fact that I'm used to that engine noise makes the diagnostic even harder for me.

You'll see, this Windstar overheated twice, the first time was because of a corroded water pump impeller that disintegrated and the second was caused by air in the system. We rebuilt it both times and as I mentioned before I can't remember if we replaced any of the timing components, we might have done it the first time but not the second; at this point I would say we didn't and I'm guessing that's the reason why the chain and/or tensioner are failing.

Now I'm convinced that the problem is at the chain and not the lifters; as I said before, the noise is more noticeable at the timing cover rather than the valve covers.

Originally Posted by 12Ounce

I removed and inspected my chain around 216k miles... it showed no wear, so it was re-installed and now is at 341k miles. I expect it to go to 500k miles. Mobil1. If I ever replace the chain, the wheels will also be replaced. For some engines... the chains, wheels, take-ups, guides, etc ... are all available as a single kit.

If your chain is the noise maker, it could just be the take-up/tensioner device. They are sometimes defective and fail. I'm not sure, don't remember about the one in the 3.8, if this tensioner has a hydraulic component or not ... it may just be a spring. If it does have a hydraulic component, that might answer why it is sensitive to oil-weight and temperature. ??

Originally Posted by serge_saati

Yes there's an hydraulic tensioner for the timing chain of the 3.8L. In bottom of the picture.

Thanks again 12Ounce.

That must be the reason because the noise seems to be coming from the middle eight of the engine, by the idler pulley's height. I'm pretty sure if I manage to listen at the back tensioner the noise will be more audible there.

Guys, from your comments, I say I will have to replace the timing chain and tensioner (from the image, I guess it must come with the guides) AT LEAST. Would that be ok if I can get them by separate, or should I just bite the bullet and get it as an assembly with the sprockets?

Replacing the chain itself is a PITA; I would like to know if there's any chance for the sprockets to go bad. If that's the case then I'll surely get the whole thing so I won't have to deal with it again.

***********

Since the noise is more noticeable as the engine warms up, it would be "safe" to run the engine a few minutes so I can maneuver the Lincoln out of the garage? My garage is supposed to be for 2 vehicles, but has enough space to actually store 3 vehicles and in order to get it out, I'll need to move the windstar. It shouldn't be more than a few minutes and wouldn't even reach normal temp.

What do you guys think?

I wonder if anybody has any tips on this task. I understand I'll have to:

-Set engine at TDC
-Drain the oil and coolant
-Remove the tensioner and idler pulleys
-Remove the alternator
-Set the steering pump aside
-Set the A/C compressor aside
-Remove the crankshaft pulley and dampener
*1.- Will I need to remove the oil filter adapter and pump from the engine?
*2.- Will I need to remove engine mount nut in order to raise the engine?
*3.- Should the water pump be removed first, or is it possible to remove it while still attached to the timing cover?
*4.- I think I must remove the passenger side oil pan bolts. Will that be enough or should I remove the entire oil pan.
*5.- Is it necessary to remove the cam synchronizer?
*6.- Should I replace the crankshaft seal on the cover or not?. There are no oil leaks ATM.

I checked the manual but the procedure stated in it only covers the removal for the 3.0 engine.

This thing will remain parked for some time now until I can afford it.

Oscar.

[12Ounce]

I would be hesitant to take lay out such bucks. Have you ever tested the oil pressure?

Disintegrated water pump impeller, eh. Let me guess: plain, or even worse ... distilled water, used as a coolant ... with no anti-freeze, or anti-rust added. ??

[olopezm]

Originally Posted by 12Ounce

I would be hesitant to take lay out such bucks. Have you ever tested the oil pressure?

Disintegrated water pump impeller, eh. Let me guess: plain, or even worse ... distilled water, used as a coolant ... with no anti-freeze, or anti-rust added. ??

Still haven't been able to find an oil pressure tester; a store told me they might be able to get one for me and would call me, but nothing yet. The windstar will remain parked until then. There is NO WAY I'm taking it to any mechanic; I rather store it a long time than taking it there.

I have no idea about why the impeller disintegrated; when we bought the van it had proper coolant in it, looked a bit diluted though...

Oscar.

[tempfixit]

Oscar have you looked at the engine oil pressure tester at harborfreight.com, I do not know how much shipping would cost but might be worth checking into.

[olopezm]

Hi tempfixit, yeah I already took a look at it and I'm interested in the oil pressure gauge and a solar panel to keep batteries charged but I'm just waiting to see if the guy from the store can get the gauge or not, I'll be seen him tomorrow.

I really appreciate your input and will keep you informed if I decide to get anything form that web.

Oscar.

[serge_saati]

In the hydraulic tensioner you have a valve. So it's not operating at full pressure. So even a minor drop in the pressure will not cause the chain to be loose. The other proof, is that when you accelerate I still ear the noie. So I don't think the tensioner is loose because of the lack of pressure. It could be the chain itself.

[Windstartled]

Originally Posted by olopezm

I have no idea about why the impeller disintegrated; when we bought the van it had proper coolant in it, looked a bit diluted though...

Metal fatigue perhaps? It's a common manufacturing defect...

[12Ounce]

I have an oil pressure test gauge kit that is all simple mechanical. No electrics or exotics. I use it for tranmission fluid and engine oil pressures. 0 - 300 psi. IIRC. The cost was less than $30 at AutoZone a couple of years ago.

[olopezm]

Originally Posted by serge_saati

In the hydraulic tensioner you have a valve. So it's not operating at full pressure. So even a minor drop in the pressure will not cause the chain to be loose. The other proof, is that when you accelerate I still ear the noie. So I don't think the tensioner is loose because of the lack of pressure. It could be the chain itself.

Thanks serge, If I understand right, under that same theory, the lifters would have the same operation and noise should go at higher revs due to higher oil pressure and would likely rule out a problem with them and leave only the timing chain or oil pressure as more probable causes. Is this reasoning correct or wrong?.

Originally Posted by Windstartled

Metal fatigue perhaps? It's a common manufacturing defect...

Don't know, in fact that was the first time we ever experienced a failing pump. Didn't know what kind of maintenance the previous driver did to the van but being an old lady you would normally think it should have been well maintained. At least a high percentage of the times it's like that... IIRC the replacement came with a plastic impeller.

Originally Posted by 12Ounce

I have an oil pressure test gauge kit that is all simple mechanical. No electrics or exotics. I use it for tranmission fluid and engine oil pressures. 0 - 300 psi. IIRC. The cost was less than $30 at AutoZone a couple of years ago.

Yeah, I've seen it online and was expecting they would have it in stock but no, they don't. In fact the clerk they rarely stock them due to their LOW demand. Over here most men are girly boys and can't even change a flat tire.

********

I couldn't get to see the guy form the store but will try again tomorrow. Had to take my mother to see the doctor and was a little busy today.

None of you said anything about my previous question and I'm interested to know what do you think?

Originally Posted by olopezm

Since the noise is more noticeable as the engine warms up, it would be "safe" to run the engine a few minutes so I can maneuver the Lincoln out of the garage? My garage is supposed to be for 2 vehicles, but has enough space to actually store 3 vehicles and in order to get it out, I'll need to move the windstar. It shouldn't be more than a few minutes and wouldn't even reach normal temp.

OFF TOPIC.- What do you guys think form Autozone's battery tests; the reason I ask is because I went there to have a battery tested and the guy said it's bad. I went to the place where I bought it to have it warrantied and they say Autozone tests are unreliable and a bunch of other stupid things. The thing is they wanted to "slow charge" it with 5A, I used to know slow charge means 1-2 amperes, because it's supposedly low on charge even when the DMM measures 12.5V and the electrolyte density tested BAD.

Oscar.

[serge_saati]

Originally Posted by olopezm

Thanks serge, If I understand right, under that same theory, the lifters would have the same operation and noise should go at higher revs due to higher oil pressure and would likely rule out a problem with them and leave only the timing chain or oil pressure as more probable causes. Is this reasoning correct or wrong?.

No, because at higher rpm the lifters operate faster and make more noise.

Originally Posted by olopezm

Since the noise is more noticeable as the engine warms up, it would be "safe" to run the engine a few minutes so I can maneuver the Lincoln out of the garage? My garage is supposed to be for 2 vehicles, but has enough space to actually store 3 vehicles and in order to get it out, I'll need to move the windstar. It shouldn't be more than a few minutes and wouldn't even reach normal temp.

What do you guys think?

Yes it would be safe.