Timing Off on Windstar, Where are Timing Marks?

[Searles Lewis]

Originally Posted by wiswind

The IMRC on 1999 and newer is electrically driven, 1 actuator drives both banks.
On older Windstars, it was driven by 1 vaccum driven actuator for each bank.
The IMRC on all years is in the LOWER intake manifold.
I do not see this as a cause of your noise that I heard in your video.
What is common on the 1999 and newer IMRC is that the IMRC shafts in each bank get disconnected from the actuator.
There are nylon clips that break, or fall off.
Another issue that I have seen listed 1999 and newer is that the location in the lower intake manifold where the IMR shaft passes through becomes worn, and lets enough air through to trigger the failure codes.
If the IMRC is not working, the best position for them to be in is the CLOSED position.
As this is not likely the source of your noise, I would determine if they are working.....and worry about the noise source first.
They way that they work is that the IMR will be closed below a certain RPM and only open under certain higher RPM conditions.
Do NOT race your engine to try to determine if they are working.
12ounce would be better than I to help you determine which is the closed position and if they are working, as I had the old version.
The old version had strong springs that held them open and then the vaccum was applied when you started the engine....pulling them closed.....so it was easy to determine if they were working.
However, this may not apply for the newer (1999 and newer).



Knock sensor.
The issue relative you your vehicle on this is that the knock sensor could be picking up that sound you have and the computer could be delaying the timing.
THIS is also not a likely source of your noise, so I would not worry about it right now.

Well, then what is left? Just the isolator bolt problem, right?

[tempfixit]

Originally Posted by Searles Lewis

Well, then what is left? Just the isolator bolt problem, right?

In the EGR Valves Dirty thread you had post number 5 stated that the isolator bolts are green, so I assime that the upgrade has been done. The P0171/174 code means a lean condition to both banks. A vacuum leak can cause this, Use a smoke test to look for leaks.

Video on smoke test:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMok2...0&feature=plcp

Regarding the intake manifold runner control, the only place I found the part was on the Ford site. Call your local ford dealer for availablility. One from the salavage yard would probably be your best bet.

Regarding the rear valve cover. Like I stated in a earlier post that the compression test were good does not mean the valves are opening the way they should be. The only way that you are going to be sure they open and close properly is to watch with the cover off. Until you inspect the rear valve train you will not know if the noise is coming from there or not. I believe this should have been inspected long ago as you have a no. 1 misfire. Until you verify you are quessing at the problem and wasting money by throwing parts at the vehicle. You need to find the miss cause, then check for vacuum leak.

Evertime you disconnect the battery cable the codes are erased, thus the computor goes back to its basic faults and needs to learn the drive habits again.

Have you done a vacuum test with a gauge on the engine?? Here is a video about the matter \:

http://realfixesrealfast.com/realfix...c_Test_01.html

[Searles Lewis]

Originally Posted by tempfixit

In the EGR Valves Dirty thread you had post number 5 stated that the isolator bolts are green, so I assime that the upgrade has been done.

Me too. But, I found from reaqding on the internet, these usually break more than once, too. So does the IMRC. It was listed on autozone and other sites, until today when I made the decision to look for it.

I need to make out a list of parts, I'm thinking the imrc retaining bushings, isolator bolts.

Any other suggestions?


The P0171/174 code means a lean condition to both banks. A vacuum leak can cause this, Use a smoke test to look for leaks.

Originally Posted by tempfixit

Video on smoke test:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMok2...0&feature=plcp

Can you buy canned smoke? I am quite literally deathly allergic to tobacco smoke. Not the plant, but only the smoke.

Originally Posted by tempfixit

Regarding the intake manifold runner control, the only place I found the part was on the Ford site. Call your local ford dealer for availablility. One from the salavage yard would probably be your best bet.

Okay, the wong chung site said every ford v6 has to have this replaced-wouldn't that mean 100% chance of a bad one? Is there no place else to buy used parts for such a necessary thing?

Originally Posted by tempfixit

Regarding the rear valve cover. Like I stated in a earlier post that the compression test were good does not mean the valves are opening the way they should be. The only way that you are going to be sure they open and close properly is to watch with the cover off. Until you inspect the rear valve train you will not know if the noise is coming from there or not. I believe this should have been inspected long ago as you have a no. 1 misfire. Until you verify you are quessing at the problem and wasting money by throwing parts at the vehicle. You need to find the miss cause, then check for vacuum leak.

Evertime you disconnect the battery cable the codes are erased, thus the computor goes back to its basic faults and needs to learn the drive habits again.

Okay. Tomorrow someone is running to ABQ, and can pick me up parts. I was going to do all the fixes physically tomorrow, like re-check the driver's window regulator, replace the passenger lock actuator, re-set the left door hinge forward, then move the rear left window forward too, since I drilled holes to move it backward after the door hinge didn't line up.

Sunday I can work on removing everything to get to the rear valve. Do you want me to make a video like last time?

I really appreciate this, you guys helping out. I am just really frustrated.

Originally Posted by tempfixit

Have you done a vacuum test with a gauge on the engine?? Here is a video about the matter \:

http://realfixesrealfast.com/realfix...c_Test_01.html

No, not at all. compression, not this. I don't understand where you hook the gauge up to-any open hose? Anywhere?

I figure once the plenum is off, I can check the fuel rail and fuel injectors too. I suspect they are clogged.

[tempfixit]

I read that you can check if the IMRC is working by watching the actuator for movement when yu have someone start the engine while yoou are observing. IF it moves it is good and no movement check wiring andor rplace IMRC. (If you are not getting codes for the IRMC it should be working. Codes would be P1537 and P1538)

Personally I would remove the cowl and then remove the valve cover to inspect the valve train before removing the upper plenium. Solving the misfire code and noise should be the first thing on the list to do. It is a possiblity that fixing the misfire could remedey your other codes.

No you can not get smoke in a can for testing to my knowledge, You may need to have a mechanic do a smoke test with a smoke machine or see if you can rent one some place.

Have you checked the line going to the PCV Valve for any cracks or being loose as this will cause a vacuum leak that can cause the lean codes also.


Do you know if the front valve cover has been upgrades or is it the original cover?? Re read the isolator bolt instruction for the inspection of the PCV opening in the valve cover for the determination of the old or upgraded valve cover.

I realize your availablility of getting parts when needed is difficult but just getting parts without knowing what the problems are can be costly.

You may want to get a new PCV line if you think it is needed and a new valve cover gasket for the back cover if you believe you need it as I am not sure if they are reusable or not. If you are going to remove the injectors you will need new o-rings.

I strongly recommend removing the valve cover and inspecting the valve train before getting parts. You should be able to remove the cowl then the valve cover and go from there. Could you get this done before they go to get parts??? This would give you a better idea as what parts to get. I would think it would not take more than a hour to do this.

If you want to make a video fine if not that is OK also.

[wiswind]

If the IMRC is not working, you could fasten them closed until you get the other issue solved (the noise).
I don't have any experience with the 1999 and newer.
One thing that can happen with the newer ones, from what I have read, is that when they become disconnected from the actuator (the part that moves them open/closed) you can end up with 1 open and 1 closed.
Also, with them open at low idle speed, you can have issues.

I'm trying to save you money and time by keeping things focused upon the source of the noise FIRST.
If someone can offer help on the newer, electrical driven IMRC, that would be great.
I know that the old version has springs that hold them OPEN in the absense of a vaccum, however, I do not know that this is the case on the 1999 and newer that does NOT use vaccum to hold them closed.

My advice on IMRC at this point....
If the IMRC is working, then move on to the next issue.
If it is not working....fasten it closed and save that issue for another day....when more pressing problems have been solved.
The engine will run just fine with them staying closed....you just don't have that boost of power when passing.

[tempfixit]

Originally Posted by wiswind

If the IMRC is not working, you could fasten them closed until you get the other issue solved (the noise).
I don't have any experience with the 1999 and newer.
One thing that can happen with the newer ones, from what I have read, is that when they become disconnected from the actuator (the part that moves them open/closed) you can end up with 1 open and 1 closed.
Also, with them open at low idle speed, you can have issues.

I'm trying to save you money and time by keeping things focused upon the source of the noise FIRST.
If someone can offer help on the newer, electrical driven IMRC, that would be great.
I know that the old version has springs that hold them OPEN in the absense of a vaccum, however, I do not know that this is the case on the 1999 and newer that does NOT use vaccum to hold them closed.

My advice on IMRC at this point....
If the IMRC is working, then move on to the next issue.
If it is not working....fasten it closed and save that issue for another day....when more pressing problems have been solved.
The engine will run just fine with them staying closed....you just don't have that boost of power when passing.

I agree, solve NOISE issue first.

[tomj76]

FYI:

I once had an exhaust valve that did not open, the vehicle had low power, a misfire, and made popping sounds at the intake. The vacuum reading fluctuated with the pops (less vacuum). The cause was a missing lobe on the camshaft, which was the result of inadequate lubrication, which was caused by tar deposits inside the engine.

Once I decided to start tearing into the engine it took less than a day to find the cause, and only because I proceeded carefully and methodically. It was clear when cranking the engine (with the plugs out) because the valve never moved.

[tempfixit]

Originally Posted by tomj76

FYI:

I once had an exhaust valve that did not open, the vehicle had low power, a misfire, and made popping sounds at the intake. The vacuum reading fluctuated with the pops (less vacuum). The cause was a missing lobe on the camshaft, which was the result of inadequate lubrication, which was caused by tar deposits inside the engine.

Once I decided to start tearing into the engine it took less than a day to find the cause, and only because I proceeded carefully and methodically. It was clear when cranking the engine (with the plugs out) because the valve never moved.

thanks tom, this is why I keep on saying to remove the rear valve cover to check the valve train.

[tomj76]

I forgot to make it clear that the valve covers were removed when I was cranking the engine, so I could see if they were moving.

It's worth mentioning that I threw money at it for a while trying to make sure it wasn't something external (i.e. plugs, wires, PCV, O2 sensor...)

[wiswind]

I would disable the fuel pump or fuel injectors to keep the engine from starting.....
THEN have 1 person crank the engine in, say 5 second spurts, while a 2nd person, using a flashlight.....views the rocker arm action to see if it is pushing each valve down.

[Searles Lewis]

Sunday-Update

I was supposed to get the parts for the van on Sunday, and finish fixinf it. I had to cal ltwice to a place ,and they had them. I guess my mother decided to thwart me, and made up a story that they did not, then started a screaming fight accusing me of everything on earth, and then backed up and admitted she was lying and wrong. I knew she was crazy already. But she set it up a week in advance so I would think she was planning on fixing the car, and then even got my neighbor's wife to get my neighbor to mess with me. He gave me a broken liftjack, it collapsed onto the jackstands while I was attempting to put on the exhaust hanger, and I was unable to fix the exhaust hanger. He also told me to use vaseline to grease it, but as it's rubber, that would cause it to fail.

She then told me to order the parts. She said to use her credit card, and it would take 5 days. She refused to give it to me tho, and then called today. If I order the parts now, they will not be herre by this weekend-second thwarting by her. I will get blamed for it either way. Autozone's site and one guy I spoke to both said they had them.

The IMRC is jammed. My gas mileage varies from 5-7 miles to ten-12, it used to be over 20, or 20 in town.

Cutting off the hanger reduced the noise quite a bit. I think that, plus the IMRC and it's bad bearings might be causing all of the problem. the runner part of the IMRC name does not refer to runners whereby the intake clamshell fit into each other (as angry Ed, the mechanic told me), it refers to long metal rods which turn the butterfly valves, and that failing might have helped caused the burned anti-freeze stuff to build up so badly on the egr metering ports and the intake plenum.

So, right now no progress. But thansk to everyone here for helping out, even if the suggestion does not work. I know from experience with health problems cars are about the same-keep trying until you hit the right answer/cure. You all contributed to that and I am very grateful for that help, even if it did not result in a fix!

[tempfixit]

NO 1---Never ever depend on a jack to hold the vehicle up always install jackstands under the vehicle and put the vehicle pressure on the jack stands not on the jack itself.

No 2-- Why not do as wiswind suggested for now and tie both runner controls open (( both runner controls levers should be away from the center of the engine to be open) this video will help you understand this.

http://realfixesrealfast.com/realfix...IRC_Codes.html

No 3-- A exhaust hanger does not have anything to do with the performance of a engine, all it does is hold the exhaust in place.

No 4-- WHY are you so dead against removing the cowl and rear valve cover to inspect the valve train. You may very well do all the other work and find that it is a valve train problem and you will again be waiting for parts to fix that situation. By doing this you will have at least dtermined if it is the problem or not. You can still do the isolator bolts and such once you have the noise is fixed.
If I remember correctly you have already replaced spark plugs, cleaned the egr ports. removed the front valve cover and replaced the coil.

Did you ever do like 12ouce suggested and remove all the spark plug wires and make sure they are installed correctly????????????????

There are several members trying to help you but you do not seem to want to follow the suggestions.

A bad valve train will cause the mileage drop like you suggest but more than that the unburned gas will destroy the catalytic convertor. ($1200.00 to replace without labor.)

Have you done a vacuum test with a gauge yeet????? Read this link:

http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm

[wiswind]

Setting the IMR runners (the shaft through each bank in the lower intake manifold that has the "butterfly" plates on them) will IMPROVE your gasoline mileage.
Of course, as you know, it will not fix any other problems, but it will fix that one......and not cost you money to do it.
I look at having the IMRC working (opening the extra port for each cylinder) as a luxury....not a necessity.
However, having them open ALL the time will be bad for fuel economy and smooth running at low RPM.
Having 1 bank closed and 1 bank open will cause an imballance between the 2 banks of cylinders and have your PCM going crazy trying to compensate for that.
Having thel fastened CLOSED will improve fuel economy and not cause rough running........all you loose is some horsepower at high RPMs.
Having them fastened CLOSED solves the problem and lets you focus on real problems.
If they are connected, and working correctly, then that is no concern.


For most of my work....I use ramps and set the parking brake, gear select in PARK and block the wheels that are on the ground, all to prevent the vehicle from moving.

[Searles Lewis]

Originally Posted by tempfixit

I read that you can check if the IMRC is working by watching the actuator for movement when yu have someone start the engine while yoou are observing. IF it moves it is good and no movement check wiring andor rplace IMRC. (If you are not getting codes for the IRMC it should be working. Codes would be P1537 and P1538)

My car was not coding for most of this.

At the bottom site, guy gives some info, like the 100% failure rate for ford v6's they all get this problem.
http://sites.google.com/site/fordf15...P0171P0174-Fix

Originally Posted by tempfixit

Personally I would remove the cowl and then remove the valve cover to inspect the valve train before removing the upper plenium. Solving the misfire code and noise should be the first thing on the list to do. It is a possiblity that fixing the misfire could remedey your other codes.

Have you checked the line going to the PCV Valve for any cracks or being loose as this will cause a vacuum leak that can cause the lean codes also.


Do you know if the front valve cover has been upgrades or is it the original cover?? Re read the isolator bolt instruction for the inspection of the PCV opening in the valve cover for the determination of the old or upgraded valve cover.

I realize your availablility of getting parts when needed is difficult but just getting parts without knowing what the problems are can be costly.

You may want to get a new PCV line if you think it is needed and a new valve cover gasket for the back cover if you believe you need it as I am not sure if they are reusable or not. If you are going to remove the injectors you will need new o-rings.

I strongly recommend removing the valve cover and inspecting the valve train before getting parts. You should be able to remove the cowl then the valve cover and go from there. Could you get this done before they go to get parts??? This would give you a better idea as what parts to get. I would think it would not take more than a hour to do this.

If you want to make a video fine if not that is OK also.

PCV is fine. A friend suggested using water with dishwashing liquid instead, I remember that trick now, will do it.

I would like the intake manifold runner control ford part number for this year, regardless. I did the trick, I tried moving the two rods, they squealed like rusty hinges, the other hardly moved at all. They moved when I started the car, did not move back afterwards. The guy I spoke with a the parts store stated that alone could be causing the problems with it accelerating ,etc. We checked for codes, nothing.

This weekend I will fix the car. I will find a way to soak the exhaust hanger, and put it on, then the plenum isolator bolts and the seals, and see if the egr metering ports need to be cleaned. Then, will replace the bushings since they are bad anyway, and attempt to replace the imr.

could someone get me the part number? all the ones online I have found are for the friggin' two piece. I found a scan by someone on here earlier, like 4-6 years ago, with a pic of it, but no part number.

[Searles Lewis]

I will also take off the rear valve cover, check the fuel rail, and the fuel injectors.