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Old 01-22-2003, 09:10 PM   #46
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AWD has been banned from F1 because it made the cars to fast.
Rule changes were also made to pretty much every single touring car series in the world that gave AWD cars a huge weight penalty becasue they had proved to be to fast.

And of course how many 2wd WRC cars are there?

AWD offers an enourmous handling and traction advantage over 2WD. And you don't have to be particulary intelligent to see it.





And as was stated at the start of the thread, you can not compare the Veyron with 16, as the only thing the two cars have in common is the number of wheels at each corner, and the hp of each engine.
They are both in quite differnt class'es.
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Old 01-22-2003, 09:13 PM   #47
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Old 01-22-2003, 09:14 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moppie
AWD has been banned from F1 because it made the cars to fast.
Rule changes were also made to pretty much every single touring car series in the world that gave AWD cars a huge weight penalty becasue they had proved to be to fast.

And of course how many 2wd WRC cars are there?

AWD offers an enourmous handling and traction advantage over 2WD. And you don't have to be particulary intelligent to see it.





And as was stated at the start of the thread, you can not compare the Veyron with 16, as the only thing the two cars have in common is the number of wheels at each corner, and the hp of each engine.
They are both in quite differnt class'es.

yes they are very much designed for differenet purposes- The Bugatti continues thier theme of luxury supercars


Cadillac continues thier theme of luxury cars.


Given the choice between the two it is obvious what any sane man would take (Bugatti) however the Bugatti comes at a much higher cost- but if you can pay that kind of money for a car I bouby money would come nito the equation
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Old 01-23-2003, 12:30 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moppie
AWD has been banned from F1 because it made the cars to fast.
Rule changes were also made to pretty much every single touring car series in the world that gave AWD cars a huge weight penalty becasue they had proved to be to fast.

And of course how many 2wd WRC cars are there?

AWD offers an enourmous handling and traction advantage over 2WD. And you don't have to be particulary intelligent to see it.

And as was stated at the start of the thread, you can not compare the Veyron with 16, as the only thing the two cars have in common is the number of wheels at each corner, and the hp of each engine.
They are both in quite differnt class'es.
Er, AWD offers zero handling benefit, the only time AWD comes into play is when you add power, you will not take turns any faster, you might exist a turn faster but because of the extra unsprung weight you would have given some of it up on the entry, slow in-fast out can apply but theres obviously other factors in there.

WRC cars do not equal handling, they may do so but rally racing is a very different form where traction is minimal and ctonrolling a slide is key.

you DO have to be somewhat intelligent to see that just turning the front wheels under power doesn't give you immense handling gains, the gains are with traction upon acceleration only.

and I'd like to see where F1 banned AWD? noone would even THINK of going to AWDD because it makes the cars heavier, it increases parasitic loss, it creates a TON of drag with an open front suspension and it adds complexity, ALL of those are things F1 teams avoid, AWD isn't even a desire in that case.
weight penalties with AWD cars? they're just heavier, perhaps you're confusing the 2. weight penalties are given to any car that does not follow the rules. And if i remember correctly, in europe, the land where this car is from, the RWD E30 M3 with RWD is the premire touring car. . .

and you still havent shown me anything stating that quattro was banned form anything but rally racing, prove your statements. and if deakins is still reading, i havent found a nissan president with any type of DOD yet. . .

Any sane man would chose the Bugatti? iw onder how such a closed minded person got to be a moderator . . .
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Old 01-23-2003, 12:30 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jimster

Given the choice between the two it is obvious what any sane man would take

Actualy I think it depends on what the sane man was looking for.

If I want to get from Auckland to Wellington in the lest time possible then clearly the Veyron is the faster car, but If I wanted to transverse the USA with out ever feeling a single bump in the road or having to think about what I was doing then the Cadi would be my choice. And on the long flat US highways probobly just as quick between citys as the Veyron.

Its just differnt strokes for differnt folks.
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Old 01-23-2003, 01:18 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moppie



Actualy I think it depends on what the sane man was looking for.

If I want to get from Auckland to Wellington in the lest time possible then clearly the Veyron is the faster car, but If I wanted to transverse the USA with out ever feeling a single bump in the road or having to think about what I was doing then the Cadi would be my choice. And on the long flat US highways probobly just as quick between citys as the Veyron.

Its just differnt strokes for differnt folks.

Agreed
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Old 01-23-2003, 03:34 AM   #52
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The Veyron is a beautiful GT/Coupé and the Sixteen a beautiful Sedan. The bot have their interest but the Cadillac won't be old with this egine, althoug the Bugatti will be sold with its W16 1001hp/
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Old 01-23-2003, 11:30 AM   #53
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I have a few things to say here.

Aerodynamics plays a HUGE roll. If you think otherwise you have no concept of physics. You go tell people setting land speed records that it doesn't and they will laugh your ass right off the salt flats.

Just because something looks aerodynamic does not mean it is. I have seen cars that don't that have zero drag and I have seen cars that look like they are that aren't at all. I wouldn't want to take either much over 150. They aren't built for that, they are for old grandpa to drive around in. Both are wastes of money to me and offer nothing new or extraordinary. 1000HP is nothing impressive to me. I can get that out of plenty of engines.

I would pick neither.
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Old 01-23-2003, 12:51 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by FYRHWK1
and what similarities coudl the R32 possibly have with the 7 speed dual clutched veyron box? its not an amazingly advanced tranny, its just a 7 speed with a second clutch integrated.
http://www.vwvortex.com/news/11_02/11_28/index.shtml

Quote:

I still havent found anything on the president running DOD, i'm starting to think it doesnt exist.
The President uses a system that shuts down a cylinder row if any iregularitys is detected, and I remember reading about a company that made a ecu program that would do that if the driver wanted.

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not a bad motor, thats a peaky graph, but it's impressive for a small motor, i take it it's running on pump gas? and 80 hp is still a good bit away. . .
http://www.eiptuning.com/video/658vr6tdv.mpg
Like I said, they are reliable, the only problems they have is a weak stock headgasket and a crappy waterpump. And I own one.

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2,720 lbs? where did you get that info by the way? thats fairly light for a car of its size
Like I said, the Veyron is not a big car, and I got the dimensions out of a brochure I picked up in Berlin.

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who says the Sledgehammer can only go straight? the C4 corvettes on a set of good tires and a non stock alignment have pulled over 1G laterally, the only thing thats to their detriment was a somewhat heavy curb weight, they handled plenty well stock with room for improvement.
I didn't say that.

Quote:

AWD isnt for cars that go around a track either, we all know this, I'd like to see you mention a dedicated racecar, or even a highly sucessful road car that runs AWD?
Audi got stuck with weight penaltys in 1997 in various touring series around the world, and quattro was finally banned from BTCC, GTCC (DTM), TOCA, ITCC, Belgian TCC in 1998. With the exeptions of ATCC, CECC and STCC.
You can argue all you won't but Audis motorsport history is probablt the best in the world, they have succeded in everything they have ever layed their hands on. Rally, Touringcars, Sportcars. The only purpose built racecar they have built since quattro was invented is the R8, and awd is not allowed in the LeMans race, but they still won, pretty much dominated it till they pulled out last year. Unlike Cadillac I might add.
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Old 01-23-2003, 01:04 PM   #55
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thanks for the clarification.

awd offers zero handling benefit?

have you driven a fast as hell car that has awd?
hmm...

you can plant your foot into and out of a corner, as well as not have to worry about braking as much b/c you have more traction when the weight transfers... i could go on...

skylines don't have awd for no reason. audi didn't make the s4 with quattro and the tt with quattro for no reason. it handles better.

especially when compared in that class... if you want to compare a vette to an s4, the s4 is still going to handle better... if left stock.

back to the speed gt series... where the awd s4 dominated the vettes, vipers, and all the other cars... hmm....
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Old 01-23-2003, 01:14 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by flylwsi
skylines don't have awd for no reason. audi didn't make the s4 with quattro and the tt with quattro for no reason. it handles better.
That statement is false. Please dont confuse handling with grip. The TT has AWD but doesnt handle as well as a RWD 3-series BMW. More grip, maybe. Better handling? No
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Old 01-23-2003, 01:39 PM   #57
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Several good, and several not-so-good.
Essentially, the Cadillac is designed for pure luxury. The power is likely delivered in a slow manner. It will no doubt pull hard at any speed, with a minimum of fuss. Whereas the Bugatti should rev quite high, and provide gobs of mad horsepower at any rpm. It will also handle better, since it isnt overly concerned with comfort, as the Cadillac is.

As for gears, more is definately better in a vehicle going over 250mph. Because, each gear can take up from a higher RPM after you upshift, keeping the engine in a more powerful part of the rev range, providing better acceleration.

As for AWD, well, its good, and it isnt. Many race drivers say they prefer RWD. Personally, Im partial to it, as there is less understeer. But with lots of power, exciting a corner can be greatly aided by AWD. It all depends on the application. I feel the Veyron might benefit from AWD.
Besides, the Cadillac will be tuned to understeer anyway, to maintain a comfortable ride.
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Old 01-23-2003, 01:47 PM   #58
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please keep in mind the intended purpose of the two cars...

compare a 3 series, not an m, with the quattro tt, and i'm pretty sure the handling will be at least the same if not better...

more grip equals better handling. they go hand in hand-ling...

for example, if you upgrade the wheel/tire combo on your car, you'll get better grip, and better handling.

and my statement wasn't false.

on a road course... the awd skyline will outhandle the rwd, mainly b/c it has more grip. more grip means better handling... i'm sure i'm leaving something else out, but they're interrelated.


on the rwd/awd note... i'm aware that most drivers tend to want a well balanced rwd car... however, it's not a bad thing to have on the car.
galati's s4 is my example. i never said it was better, but did note that it is a great thing to have on a car that is designed for it.
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Old 01-23-2003, 01:57 PM   #59
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I wouldn't say grip equals good handling. Look at another Audi, the RS6, it's fast, no one can argue that, but I won't say it handles well.
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Old 01-23-2003, 02:22 PM   #60
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I have nothing against AWD. Quite the opposite, im a big fan. Hell, my favourite car is a Lancia Integrale Evolution!!!

But, my good man, more grip does not mean better handling. Sometimes a little slip is what is needed. A 911 Carrera 4 has more grip than a 911 GT3. Which one handles better? The GT3, infinitely. Don't get me wrong the Carrera 4 is a blinding car, its AWD traction is fantastic, but in terms of pure handling it's not at the level of the GT3.

Quote:
compare a 3 series, not an m, with the quattro tt, and i'm pretty sure the handling will be at least the same if not better...
Im not sure if youre saying the 3 has better handling or the TT. In either case, M or not, 3-series handles better than a TT. That's the way it is. The TT does have more grip though. But as we said, this doesnt equal better handling.

Deakins could not be more correct. The RS6 has more grip (and speed) than an M5. Does it handle as well? Not a chance in hell. Ditto S4 Vs M3.
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