Nissan Skyline R34 gt-r v-spec 2 vs. Ferrari 360 modena

[USA Racer]

Originally posted by Razorgtst
:huh:

One would think that a car that is capable of higher cornering speeds would have better handling.

It adds to the handling dept. A car that gets more g's or goes through the slalom faster than the other wouldn't exactly make that car faster on the track, or even on the road.

I've been searching for the element that makes a car handle better for all my life (or at least the first time I got in a go-cart...). I've come to this conclusion. The key element in making a car handle better is......


The driver.

Yes indeed.
:licker:

For example:
Most compact car guys would feel out of place in a modern 'musclecar' like a Ford Mustang GT, or Camaro Z28. But if the GT or Z28 driver mastered his/her car and hops in a sport compact, they will push the car to it's limits, and get a minor thrill, but nothing too exciting. I've seen it all the time. Camaro drivers hop in a Celica or whatever and aren't impressed.

The Skyline GT-R is a wonderfull machine but it's full of trickery...


Makes you wonder if these F1 drivers would still be super sharp and skillful if their cars were striped of all of their electronic handling...umm.... stuff.

I've been in a few cars than can acheive 1 g force on the skid pad with just a few simple mods but that won't nessisarily make them faster than a 360 Modena around the corners.

[crayzayjay]

No disrespect to any Skyline fans or owners out there, but I think its laughable to choose a Skyline over a Ferrari. ANY Ferrari.

JBL85> the ferrari interior is ugly????? well, i guess its a matter of taste so thats fine but i would gladly bet that 95% of people would disagree with that statement. But "calling the 360 a preppy girl's race car"???? are you insane? TatII also seems to think that the 360 is not a car the hardcore sports enthusiast would drive but both of you couldnt be further from the truth. sure there are many people, who as you said it, think theyre "the shit" when they drive around in a 360, but well, who wouldnt? i bet you feel pretty good when youre driving behind the wheel of a Skyline, so think about what it must be like to be behind the wheel of the prancing horse.. the snarling sound coming from right behind you as you squeeze that throttle. anyway, thats not the point. the truth is that the real driver's car out of these 2 is the ferrari. no question about it. it communicates with the driver in a way that the skyline can only dream of. this is simply due to the fact that the skyline drives itself, to a certain extent of course. get the back out of shape at high speed, and the car sorts it out for you. in the ferrari, get the back out of shape and you better be sure youre gonna catch it. last time i checked, sports enthusiast drivers, or whatever you want to call them, are people who get behind the wheel for a challenge, for something that will make them work for their reward. this is what makes a sports car. speed is also a factor in the equation, but the essential element of a sports car is that it communicates with the driver, and that his/her minute inputs are reflected in the way the car behaves. the 360 does this. a GT3 does this even more. A Skyline doesnt always do this. in the skyline the car takes over from the driver. thats not what driving is about. Driving is about pleasure, and while pleasure can be derived from speed, it is mainly achieved from self-satisfaction. if you drive the 360 on the edge, YOU are doing this. i dont want to insult the skyline owners by saying that anyone could drive a skyline fast, as it isnt true, but it's much easier to drive the Skyline fast than the Ferrari. Therefore, the Ferrari is the true driver's car. Add to that the following, and the contest is over
* the sound of that engine: horny
* its looks (not a classically beautiful ferrari but far superior to Skyline)
* that interior
* prestige. it is a ferrari, after all.

Game over. Ferrari wins

[crayzayjay]

Originally posted by RazorGT
One would think that a car that is capable of higher cornering speeds would have better handling.

Higher cornering speeds are all good but im sure youll agree that the car also has to provide enough feedback to generate confidence in the driver as it does this. Electronics dont always achieve that, IMO

cheers,
jay

[JBL85]

F20C
Offline 02-12-2002 12:00 PM This person is on your Ignore List. To view this post click [here]

Thats why I did to avoid his comments =)

[Nismo SE-R Spec V]

True dat, though I think the skyline is still a beautiful piece of machine, I sure with they made them in the us, I dont really like the new ones that are about to come out, though they are twin turbo stock I hear!, My goal is to get an SE-R by the end of this year, those are close to skylines in some perspectives

[TatII]

crayzayjay you made a very very good point about the gt-r compared to the prancing horse. you throw a gt-r in a corner and it would jsut take it. no sweet. but with a ferrari it actually requires alot more skill to drive it fast. thats why in japan there is still the major debate of rear wheel drive or 4wd. both sides agreed that 4wd is faster, but you lose all drivin pleasure that you would get in a rear wheel drive.

[crayzayjay]

on a circuit theres no evidence that 4wd is faster than rwd. for the average driver though, this will always be the case. at the end of the day they both have their pro's and con's. as long as the 4wd is fairly organic i.e. not too much tech. input when you mess up, it's fine by me.

cheers,
jay

[JBL85]

I think the average joe likes the comfort of AWD, its just a security around turns and at high speeds.....I feel safer in my AWD SUV going high speeds then I do in my maxima just because its sooo much more sturdy.

[USA Racer]

I think the thrust of a RB26 engine with modifed turbos gave the GT-R more popularity than it's AWD tech. Atleast in America I think that's why Skyline fans like the car. Boost.

[Tom_S8]

I think those are actually really different cars , and shouldn't be compared , but i would choose the ferrari and then sell it and for the money i would buy an M5 and a ferrari 348...

[AEstud]

ferarri, no exceptions.:bandit:

[Gonthrax]

Originally posted by crayzayjay
No disrespect to any Skyline fans or owners out there, but I think its laughable to choose a Skyline over a Ferrari. ANY Ferrari.

Game over. Ferrari wins

No one said what we were "choosing for" Like I said before, if we were choosing what car to buy, GTR. If we are choosing which car I would pick of someone gave them to me, Farrari. If we are choosing which car I would rather drive, GTR. You say it is laughable to choose a skyline over a farrari? Perhaps I wouldn't feel comfortable driving such an expensive car. Perhaps I don't want to pay oodles of money when someone rear ends me or taps me while parking. Perhaps I want to mod my vehicle and don't want to pay an arm and a leg for a simple exhaust. Perhaps I feal that the GTRs "electronic... Stuff" puts me in safer hands. Like I said in a previous post emagine this situation in which case the two are modded. Ask youself this. You enter a 70km/hr turn doin 140km/hr. You reach the apex. You yam on the gas. Would you rather be on a sure footed, computer monitored (10 times a second) AWD system that can split torque 50/50 to control your 700bhp? Or do you want your back tires to light up, kick the rear end out, and send you spinning into a tree and wrapping your brand new Farrari around it? Now if any of you out there are professional racecar drivers, disreguard this because I'm sure you could handle it, but I am not a racecar driver, I'm sure that at some point in my life I will missjudge how much gas to give and put myself in that same situation.

but the essential element of a sports car is that it communicates with the driver, and that his/her minute inputs are reflected in the way the car behaves. the 360 does this. a GT3 does this even more. A Skyline doesnt always do this. in the skyline the car takes over from the driver. thats not what driving is about

I dissagree, I have heard absolutly no people saying that "My GTR just handles too sluggishly" Or "I hate it, I turn my wheel and for a second, nothing happens!!" Also about "the car takes over"... No... A good AWD system and the car "taking over" are two very different things. All ATTESSA ETS or PRO do is try to keep your wheels from spinning. Now trust me, you can make them spin if you are screwing up.

[crayzayjay]

I'm sorry, but your whole defining of the word "choosing" car A over car B strikes me of clinton asking the interviewer guy to define sexual intercourse. fact is, this thread is asking us to weigh up the pros and cons of one car over another, and ultimately, choose one. That is what i did. if we wanted to define every possible "choosing" scenario we would be here for years. "what if i wanted to buy the car then loan it to my cousin's nephew in Andorra who will offer me stock options in his stepfather's biotechnology company at a rate that is proportionally related to the car's achieved mpg during track driving, which should i choose?" NO. plain and simple: Car A, car B. Discuss. Choose one.

you want to bring price into the equation? fine.
ok, your skyline will be cheaper to buy, run, repair etc... but what about resale value? will its depreciation rate be lower than that of the Ferrari? I dont think so. forget the rate, think about the actual amounts youre paying. you would probably lose a gross sum on the skyline over 2 years that you would lose on the Ferrari in the same period. using prices in the uk as an approximate guide:
Buy Skyline for £50k, sell 2 years later at £30k.
Buy 360 for £100k, sell 2 years later at £80k.
im sure some smartass will come up with the official average resale prices for each of these cars but i think you know what im saying. all you lose in time of ownership of the ferrari is running costs, which are greater in the ferrari. BUT what you lose on the skyline is a greater proportion of your money when you resell, so overall the 360 makes more sense from a $ point of view, if you can afford it in the first place.
that said, most people cant, so they buy the Skyline, which is all good, but if you want to be so calculating over which is economically better for you, its not as wide open as you would think. in fact, if you intend to resell the car in a couple of years, stump up the £50k you would have used to buy the Skyline and borrow the rest on a flexible loan, when you resell the car, you will get a very healthy sum as people dont want to be on a 2 year waiting list for the ferrari. with this healthy sum of $$$, pay off the rest of the loan and net $ outcome for you may not be so bad, it may even be profitable compared to the Skyline. but that's just one possibility and depends on a range of things happening. so it cant be this complicated, we have to simply look at which car we would rather choose and why.
so ill say it again, its laughable to choose a NISSAN Skyline over a FERRARI. i have my reasons, if you want to know, i refer you to my previous post.

....and about entering an 70km/h apex at 140km/h:
1. err... its pretty simple. dont enter a chicane at twice the appropriate speed, in ANY car. a skyline can be spun too, you know, as can any car. and sure people misjudge corners, youre absolutely right, but this applies to any driver in any car: you are not a good driver unless you are aware of your limits and those of the car. sure, some dumbass will approach this 70kmh chicane at 140kmh and his car's technology MIGHT bail him out. this instils a false sense of confidence which will lead to this guy driving even more recklessly until the car's software simply is not able to defy the laws of physics. by some coincidence -> a car journo in the uk bought a skyline and was mesmerised by its electronics. he was showing off in front of friends in the car when he said "look, you can provoke it as much as you like and the car just sorts if out for you" you can guess the rest... he threw it into a turn, lost control, smashed up his car and god knows what else. i know the exact turn he spun it on and believe me you have to be stupid to try to do what he did. that came about by the car instilling a false sense of security, which is something AWD can and often does achieve.
2. if youre looking for driving thrills, which is what these cars are essentially about, then yes, the Ferrari is the sportier car, and yes, you DO want the challenge of controlling the vehicle at speed, but NOT at twice the appropriate speed through a corner.
3. if all youre concerned about is safety and the safety benefits of 4WD, then stay home. dont drive at all. take the bus, i dont know.. all cars are dangerous. people crash, its as simple as that. if youre a safe driver others around you might not be. the whole notion of choosing the Skyline over the Ferrari because it has safer handling is almost irrelevant. it only has safer handling at extremely high speeds and as i said earlier in this post its tech-wizardry could eventually deceive you.


Please tell me where i said that the Skyline handles sluggishly.
I never said the Skyline handles sluggishly, i just said it doesnt communicate with the driver as well as the 360. these are different things, im sure i dont need to justify that


cheers,
jay

[USA Racer]

To defend the Skyline (I've been all Ferrari), it truly is an enthusiats car.

Ferrari-400bhp 3100lbs.
GT-R- 276bhp 3500lbs.

The car guy *should* pick the Ferrari, but most gt car fans would take the GT-R and spend the rest of the Ferrari money on mods. Most is a strong word, it's more like, "many." Many would pick the GT-R.

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I still say 360!!!1

[Gonthrax]

Originally posted by crayzayjay
....and about entering an 70km/h apex at 140km/h:
1. err... its pretty simple. dont enter a chicane at twice the appropriate speed, in ANY car. a skyline can be spun too, you know, as can any car. and sure people misjudge corners, youre absolutely right, but this applies to any driver in any car:

I just used those number for the sake of easy convayence of my idea.

I think you missunderstood what I was trying to say about ATTESSA. I'm not saying it's a failsafe that will get you out of any bad situation you get yourself into, or that it is impossible to spin it.

All ATTESSA ETS or PRO do is try to keep your wheels from spinning. Now trust me, you can make them spin if you are screwing up.

All I was trying to say is that I like the traction benifits of ATTESSA and the handeling benifits of HICAS. If given the choice I would rather drive a car with AWD then RWD and yes that partly is because it gives a small buffer zone that if I give it a bit to much gas I won't end up wrapping my nice new car around a tree. Now I'm not saying I think if I go out and do somthing stupid attessa will bail me out, 'cause it won't. Every car has it's limits, and if you push it past them there will be trouble. Having AWD just means that car's limit for traction is a tad bit higher.

2. if youre looking for driving thrills, which is what these cars are essentially about, then yes, the Ferrari is the sportier car, and yes, you DO want the challenge of controlling the vehicle at speed, but NOT at twice the appropriate speed through a corner.

Agian I was only using those numbers for easy explination, I wasn't using them seriously.

3. if all youre concerned about is safety and the safety benefits of 4WD, then stay home. dont drive at all. take the bus, i dont know.. all cars are dangerous. people crash, its as simple as that. if youre a safe driver others around you might not be. the whole notion of choosing the Skyline over the Ferrari because it has safer handling is almost irrelevant. it only has safer handling at extremely high speeds and as i said earlier in this post its tech-wizardry could eventually deceive you.

I'm not sure which I would choose if we are talking which is safer. I am going to have to disagree with the part about only being safer at extremely high speeds as I don't see what makes a GTR any safer then any car at high speeds. At low speeds were you could have a slight twitch of the foor and spin a car with no traction controll, you might not spin a GTR as your torque splitting could split that extra 20 or 30 ft/lbs of torque to the front.
Now I don't think "tech-wizardry" will ever deceve me as I don't hold any false pretences about it, I know what it is there for, I know what it can do and what it can't. Like I said earlier, when it comes to traction all this "tech-wizardry" pays off. I don't think any one in their right mind would say that a RWD car is going to put more power to the ground then an AWD car with 45/55 torque split monitored 10 times a second.

But in the end it all comes down to personal likes, I like GTRs, period. Now if given the choice of the two, I'd take the 360, drive if for a few months because hey, it is a ferarri, then sell it and buy an R32 and mods