What are ALL the symptoms of a worn out Manual Transmission ?

[way]

This topic got covered over and over in teamswift. There is a Suzuki TSB that specifically mentions GM Synchromesh:

I first ran across the recomendation for Synchromesh in the Suzuki TSB No. TS3-02 03071(R), which covered changes to the GTi second gear synchro:
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?p=212622#212622




Pennzoil Synchromesh is recommended as a cheaper alternative to GM Synchromesh. I guess the question is what does the spec sheet for GM Synchromesh look like? Is Pennzoil Synchromesh the equivalent?

[DOCTORBILL]

On the way back from work today, I stopped by our Pull-n-Save..

They had only two Geo Metros ! (Both 1994) One was gutted out in front.

The other had the Engine removed - but not the manual Transmission !

The clutch and throwout bearing were gone - just the Transmission left.
Those parts may have been in the car - usually they throw parts they don't want
in inside the car.

It did not look damaged in any way at all.

All the work has been done, essentially !

QUESTION - since the engine is gone...could it have been a 4 cylinder ?

Now my thoughts on going back tomorrow and "Harvesting" the Transmission....

Is it worth it to me to spend $55 for this Transmission ?

The Kit for rebuilding a manual Transmission is $172. (E-Bay)

The kit to rebuild the Clutch is $99 (also E-Bay)

If I buy this Transmission, I will be $326 into the Transmission versus $271.

Plus, if I do the syncros, I'll need to spend $35 on the Gear Puller and Long Bolts.

So....do I spent $55 more for the "practice" or wing it with mine ?

DoctorBill

Can I take it out all by my lonesome? Should I take a scissors Jack?

Do I have to drain out the oil - when I remove the wheel shafts,
will oil come gushing out ?

From reading Johnny Mullets instructions, it sounds like the hardest part
would be getting the axle shafts out (in a muddy, wet, wrecking yard at 25 degrees with heavy fog).

What tools should I take ?

[Johnny Mullet]

With no engine, I feel that if you remove the mounts, clutch cable, speedo cable, ground strap, coolant tube tab bolt, and whatever else is attached, it might pull out the bottom or maybe the top if your lucky.

The axle shaft should be popped loose from the trans with a prybar first and then the trans may wiggle out with the shaft still installed in the knuckles. One guy at Teamswift said he removed a trans without removing the axles from the wheel ends like I did on the driver's side to get mine out.

Basic required hand tools............

8MM
10MM
12MM
14MM
Above sized wrenches & sockets.
Prybar
Vise Grips
Hammer
Beer

[way]

Johnny is totally wrong... Beer should be at the top of the list.

Doc there should be a metal tag that id's the engine somewhere on the firewall:

http://swift.hit.bg/4EN.html

You will have to drain the oil because it will leak out, probably when you're not thinking about it and after you put it in the car.

Now as to the $55 question.

Your current transmission needs new bearings. You will need a puller for them regardless of anything else. So that's $35 either way. It sounds like you're going to spend the same amount on either transmission, bearings and synchros, seals etc. so that too is the same either way.

So what will the $55 buy you? You can rebuild the transmission while still using the Geo, as long as the trans holds up. The $55 buys you another transmission that will have to be worked on and less down time for your Geo. You can simply take one transmission out and put the other right back in. The transmission you will then have will need new bearings. How much is a rebuilt transmission worth? You can rebuild it but how much will someone else be willing to pay for it? You might break even on the deal and in that case the only benefit will be less downtime for the Geo and the extra experience you get working on transmissions. That's about all I can see anyway.

[Woodie83]

If you're sure it's a Metro and not a Swift, then it's a three cylinder. Metros didn't have a four cylinder option until 95.

The reason people recommend Synchromesh is because the book says to use GM Synchromesh (which is made by Pennsoil) Yes, it is quite thin, and works magically in our transmissions. Amsoil makes a version of it too, maybe that's what you've got.

[DOCTORBILL]

I am posting this for those of you who have never visited a "Pull-n-Save" type
of wrecking yard where YOU take the parts out of the wreck yourself...
Different specific names - but you get the idea.

If you don’t care – please skip to the very end. Pictures

Today (1-17-09) I got off my old butt and went to Spokane’s “Pull & Save”
to obtain a ’94 Geo Metro 5 speed manual transmission which I had seen
yesterday.

I made a list of all the tools I’d need, plus cardboard to lay down on
(everything is muddy here right now), a large can to drain the oil into and a
milk bottle to put it in.

Had all the Tools that Johnny Mullet suggested plus whatever I thought was
good to have – work gloves, back brace, paper towels, flashlight, garbage
bags (leaks oil), rope.

Got there at 10:45, paid $5 deposit for a large wheelbarrow and loaded it up
and went to Row A-17 and IT WAS STILL THERE !

The place was crawling with people - what a business they have now.

It was then that I realized that I had forgotten to put a belt on my Levis and
my pants were falling off my ass….in the Wrecking Yard lot while I walked around.

There is about six inches of snow on the ground and it was 33 °F at the yard
and here is the ONLY Geo Metro that wasn’t gutted out like a fish –
the Transmission was there!

I am not religious, but am also not arrogant enough to say there is no God –
but today, if He/She/It exists, DoctorBill was smiled upon -

anyway….

I stared at it for a while while I ate two Junior Whoppers because I had
forgotten to eat breakfast in my hurry to get the transmission. Dufus brain….

Here is the vehicle – a local gentleman came along looking for those plastic
clips that hold the door panels on.

Told him about Automotive Forums – he may be looking at this even now….
he said he was from the backwoods of Idaho



Here are pics of the Transmission – the engine had been removed and quite
nice for me, someone had drained the oil out of it !

I think they were going to take the transmission, but didn’t for some reason…(?)



I remembered about the VIN Number and all that it says about the vehicle.



I started by unbolting the front mount bolts.

Then when I started taking off all the cables, I noticed that the Starter Motor
was hanging there all nice and ready for DoctorBill to “harvest” – so I took it….



I am the quintessential “Pack Rat” – can’t pass up a deal….took the Engine Oil Cap too !

After removing all the wires going to the transmission (and keeping them)
I removed the right side mounting bolts and the transmission fell out the
bottom of the engine compartment.

That is when I tried to pry the Half Shafts out and couldn’t get them out….

So I realized I had to undo the Axles at the wheel as Johnny Mullet had said.
When I looked – someone had taken off the Axle Nuts !

Christ – the hard part had been done for me !

Still, I had to remove the driver’s side Strut Bolts to be able to push the axle out.
The Strut fell off – someone had unbolted it at the top …. Looked so nice, I put it
in the WheelBarrow….

I pushed the axles out the back of the Wheel and THEN it came upon me….
”Take the Half Shafts too, you fool !” a voice told me in my head….
so I pried them out of the Transmission and put them in the Wheelbarrow !

They look to be in very good shape.



By this time, the Transmission only had the two shift rods connected and both of
those nuts came off slicker’n snot…



The transmission lay there all nice and unhooked so I pulled it over to the side,
out from under the vehicle – doesn’t weight much. Put it in the WheelBarrow.



All this took me about a half hour’s time while holding up my Levi’s from falling off !

While getting all my crap together, I noticed the Driver’s Side Door Panel sitting
on top of the car…couldn’t resist it…into the WheelBarrow !

Then I saw the Driver’s Side Door Handle sitting in the snow and took it….a treasure !

I picked up every metric nut and bolt under the car and inside it. I'm such a damned Kleptomaniac…
and then I found the Throwout Bearing on the floor - took that too.


Brought it all to the office and they racked up $173.92 including all the “Core Charges”,
while I held my pants up to keep them from falling off.

BUT – All this stuff is “My Precious”

Brought it home and spread it out on the Driveway to photograph….



I wish I owned a big old metal "wash tub" like in the old days so that I could
wash all the grease, oil and dirt off of the Transmission.
How do you plug the axle holes so that degreaser, water and detergent don't get
into the guts of it ?

Man am I pooped !

Now I can take the Transmission apart and LEARN - after a nice rest, a couple of beers
and maybe a big bowl of Chili....plus a good night’s sleep.

DoctorBill

[Johnny Mullet]

Chili + beer = heartburn!

[DOCTORBILL]

Mullet - PRILOSEC No heartburn - ever.....OTC take one every day.
I could eat Tacos filled with dead rats and grubs in Jalapeño Sauce and not have heartburn !
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I brought the '94 5 speed Manual transmission inside to my "Work Room" and put
it on paper covered visqueen plastic.

Took off the mounting brackets (weight = 54 lbs) and took some photos.

Here is the top view: as you can see it is filthy.
How am I going to clean this thing off in the middle of Winter ?



Looking at the Top View, you can see two clean holes with a diagonal ridge
between them. The upper left threaded hole goes all the way thru the case !

This is where the shift cable is held by a clamp. You can fill the Transmission thru this hole...

The right side view:



I have shoved clean paper towels into the axle shaft holes to keep dirt out.

What does the Black Sheet Metal Cover on the left hold inside? Should I remove it ?

Here is the I.D. Tag on the back right side:



Is anyone able to decode the ID Tag ?

Here is the "Bell" and the Throwout Bearing that was left behind.
The rest of the clutch parts were nowhere to be found...



More to come as I rather slowly proceed.

I have to figure out how to clean this filthy bugger....

DoctorBill

[DOCTORBILL]

There are two other Threads on this Forum describing how to repair/overhaul
the Geo Metro 5 Speed Manual transmission.

One was done by Johnny Mullet (Removing and installing ) and another one is being completed by WAY
(Rebuild).

Both have excellent pictures of the work being done.

I am going to rebuild my '93 5 speed manual and was planning on formulating a
Thread showing the repairs with the obligate photos as per my usual thing.

However, I am now wondering if this is something that needs to be done...

With two Threads on the subject - with photos - why do another ?

Wouldn't that just confuse folk - or not ?

DoctorBill

[Crvett69]

take it down to car wash after you plug the holes and use the high pressure soap to wash it off, then use the rinse to take the soap off, the engine degreaser setting is a waste on money. about $5 in quarters will get it fairly clean as long as you don't mind getting a little dirty when they stuff sprays back at you

[DOCTORBILL]

Capital Idea ! Damn ! Yes.....!

Now why didn't I think of that !?

I have some GUNK and I could hose it down, put it in a Garbage Bag, let it set
for several days to emulsify the grime and then do as you say....

Maybe take the half shafts along and stick THEM back in to plug the holes....!

I haven't been to one of those high pressure car washes for at least 40 years !

But I do remember getting soaked by the back spray when I was a kid....

Thanks Crvett69 !

You've come thru again with the goods....

DoctorBill

PS - THAT is what I like about this forum !

Something that each of us alone might never think of is brought out by another person.

[DOCTORBILL]

Today is Tuesday.

I washed off the Transmission that had been soaking in GUNK for several days
using Crvett69's method - spray car wash. About $3.50.

I think the soak in GUNK made the crud come off quickly.

I also received today the Clutch Kit I ordered on E-Bay last Friday 4 days ago!

www.TheImportExperts.com $84.95 plus 16.95 shipping by UPS. They are in WA -
same state I am !

Reading destructions - what is a "spigot bearing" or "The Pilot Bush" ?

A Quote from the destruction sheet:

"Please note pilot bush noises are more apparent when the engine and transmission systems
are cold (i.e. in the mornings).

Is this the noise I am hearing now ?

How do you know if the Flywheel needs machining ?

Waiting for the 5 speed Manual Transmission Rebuild Kit I ordered from E-Bay
that same day. It is coming from Transparts out of Redding, CA.

My transmission noise is increasing !

I hope I can get thru the winter before I have to pull it out....

DoctorBill

[way]

I'm still waiting on some bearings Doc. I should have bought the same kit but I got mine cheaper through craigslist from a guy who only used one bearing. That bearing is what I'm waiting for. I don't know about your pilot bush noise. It could be what you're hearing though.

The flywheel would be like your brake rotors. No grooves, grease etc. Should be smooth.

You might want to throw in some synchromesh trans oil for the time being. I've heard Pennzoil Sychromesh is the same but a bit cheaper.

[Woodie83]

Spigot or pilot bearing sits in the center of the flywheel and supports the end of the transmission input shaft. It usually makes noise when the clutch is depressed. It should have come in your clutch kit. I've heard of packing the area behind the bearing solid with grease then driving the clutch alignment tool in there, forcing the bearing out of the flywheel.

Alternatively, when you take your flywheel in to be turned, have the machine shop get it out of there. Flywheel is just like a brake rotor in that you can usually get away with not turning it, but in this case the penalty for guessing wrong is A LOT more labor. Also, the three cylinder flywheel is too heavy to start with, you could do with a bit less metal and no worries about turning it too much.

[Crvett69]

if you take your flywheel off the pilot bearing will come off with it and you can tap it out from either side. might consider replacing rear main seal on the engine while you have the flywheel off. you can pull the transmission off without removing the engine from car. if you make it over this way i have all the tools to do it with. usually takes about 2 hours + or -. also you can put the heavier duty 4 cyl flywheel on, its same dia. as the 3 cyl one but is a little lighter and uses a bigger clutch so it lasts longer