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Old 04-25-2001, 05:26 AM   #16
geertf60
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Angry

No, I' m not joking about the the two proto's. (Maybe your joking about the Porsche GT. By the way Porsche has still not desided that they will bild the GT. A Porsche testing at the Fiorano racetrack and parking inside the Ferrari factory. I think not !!)

My friend, who owns 6 Ferrari's (F40, TR, 550,...) , had seen the red proto riding inside the factory parking place when he was visiting Ferrari for his new F360. We are members of the Dutch Ferrari Club and other members confirmed his story.

What you heard first is true. I don't say this is what the F60 will look like, but only that this are proto's with parts of the car. Two weeks ago, you could see pictures of the red car in Autocar (England) and Autowereld (Belgium). Next saturday there will be an article in Autovisie (Dutch www.autovisie.nl).

If you follow the development of the "specials"at Ferrari you know that they start the F131 project (F50) with a Mondial proto which was longer and wider. (also this two proto's). Then they start testing with a modified F40 and eventualy the final car.



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Old 04-25-2001, 10:45 AM   #17
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Yes, well you asked who wanted to see the real f60 prototypes...enough with the computer images. Thus, I took it as though you actually thought that's what it will look like.
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Old 04-25-2001, 12:37 PM   #18
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Cool

If you like to see a picture of the red testcar, visit www.caranddriver.com at the spypics site.

I saw also the computerimage of the F60 in Caranddriver. Unfortunately I lost the mag on an airport. So I tried to open the page you mentioned, but It wouldn't open.

Could you please mail me the picture (peleman.geert@tijd.com)

Thanks
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Old 04-25-2001, 03:22 PM   #19
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Alright, how about we just wait until the concept actually comes out? I belive your images that you sent because there's no way a computer can produce a 348/355 and they are testing the engine and other parts, they don't have an actual car yet. So I believe you.
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Old 04-25-2001, 04:11 PM   #20
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I got the pic off of the net, so I can't send it to you.
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Old 05-01-2001, 06:41 PM   #21
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0 to 60 in 3 seconds! thats stupid fast, i would be terrfied to drive a car that could go that fast, that quick. But it looks great and should be a car fan favorite if it evers makes it to production.
Toodles...
:flash:
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Old 06-07-2001, 07:53 PM   #22
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OK...enough banter already! This is the actual BLACK PROTOTYPE!
It seems as though Ferrari is undecided on the rear wing judging from the 2 raised fenders and it also has the "Porsche GT1" treatment to the sides. the modena cues are visible from front angle



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Old 06-08-2001, 12:56 AM   #23
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f60

dude, thanks for the pics. I think the f60 is shaping up nicely, and I think the huge wing thing is dated. Just my own speculation: drivetrain testing can be done without any respect for the car, so I suggest that the reason that this nearly undisguised prototype is roaming about is that Ferrari is doing final testing of the car's driving behavior, and perhaps checking whether the shape has effective enough downforce for 220+ top speeds, also why the wing has probably been left off. My guess is that ferrari is unsure whether the shape needs the wing, figuring such an ungainly device perhaps unnecessary. Check out the heavily contoured deck that flows into an upturned tail... The F50's was almost flat, by comparison. Also, that front overhang is huge... even a jaguar xj220 owner would consider it more than is believable, but it doesn't change frontal area any, so its possible that its fake, the real face probably rounded off more like the 360 modena's. Or at least I sincerely hope, as such a tremendous overhang is truly a design oversight if it is not chopped before production. the fact that all the lines forward of the A pillar flow so smoothly into that terribly long nose does worry me that it is the final item though. I sincerely hope, for what this car means to automotive enthusiasts around the world, that ferrari doesn't fuck this car up, because I remember how disappointed I was with the F50 from so many angles. the profile and dead on views of the top, front and rear were great, but nearly every 3/4 angle view made the car seem to have odd extrusions, too long in every direction, especially by comparison to the wicked proportions of the then-in-production McLaren F1. Doesn't mean the f50 didn't kick ass, and it also doesn't mean this car won't be as fast as we've all been led to believe, but if it isn't drop dead gorgeous, it won't be as special. It also won't occupy the space in young boys' minds that it should, and will leave the bragging rights all to the Ultima's, Mosler's, Stealth B6's and Bugatti 16/4 Veyron's of the world.
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Old 06-08-2001, 01:47 PM   #24
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I honestly think the Ferrari F50 was a true masterpiece. It is gorgeous. True, the strange front end takes getting used to, but what a front end. :licker:
Anyway, I think you cant tell the true beautyy of almost any car simply by pictures. For example, when I bought the model of the Porsche GT1, its true beauty was shown through looking at angles from close up that dont exiast in pictures. You have to see the real thing in 3d form before you can truly judge it. In a sense, many of us are blind to the true beauty that these vehicles possess.
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Old 06-08-2001, 04:20 PM   #25
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?

dude, innotech, don't get your panties in a bunch. There's no need to get all defensive about the f50. Hell, they only made 349 of them, and its not like you own one, and its also not like I called it ugly. Its a frickin ferrari. They're all gorgeous, and even the f50 isn't the least so. But at the same time, nobody considers a mondial in the same class of looks as a 360 modena or f355. My point is that for my $500,000, there's typical gorgeous, and then there is drop-dead life altering gorgeous that nobody forgets. I saw a mcLaren f1 at the mclaren dealership in london in 1995. I almost busted a nut just standing there. (sorry, I'm that much of a car freak) it was like my holy grail. I'll put some pics up of what I was talking about with the f50, eventually, but sorting through an assload of car pics isn't something I'm up to doing right now. The fact is that the engineers built the f50, and the stylists didn't really do as much as maybe they should have. Its somewhat gangly design for such a throughtfully designed piece of work. its still kate moss, just she's high on the floor in a pile of what she ate a few hours earlier from that angle. And about that 3d appreciation thing, you are right about cars in the flesh, but it doesn't carry over fully to models, man, I had about 70 (including an f50) of them back in high school but I didn't bring them with me to college. In addition, I ogled an F50 I ran into in Florida for about an hour. I'm not saying its not an eyegrabber or that its in any way unattractive. That F50 still had a weird looking front end from most offset angles. But I'll say it again so you don't lose your tampon up there, Its a good looking car, but for all that I expected from "f50" it was a disappointment. but this is supposed to be f60 forum, so if you are reading this, go up a few entries and tell me that that elongated front overhang on the black f60 prototype seems ridiculously long, even for ferrari, and that it seems that its hiding the real face under there. it doesn't matter, but it makes for fun writing on a saturday morning, don't you think?
write some more guys, this is fun... pics soon as I sober up ;-)
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Old 06-08-2001, 05:22 PM   #26
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Arrow Dan

I am impressed by your analysis of the aerodynamics of the F60. Good stuff!! I wish I knew a tenth of what you seem to know about how airflow around cars is sculpted by automobile manufaturers.. I know the very basics.

I will say that I too was definitely very disappointed by the F50 after the awe-inspiring F40. And I think that all the super exotic cars to be introduced in the next few years will have to somehow top the Saleen S7, which I believe is next to impossible. I'm sure you've seen the pictures, and if you're like 99 out of 100 people out there, you agree that it looks just flat out incredible. Well, I saw one at the NY Auto Show, and, truly, the pictures fail to do this automotive masterpiece justice. I can honestly say that I've never seen such a good-looking car. And it's design isn't just nice to look at (Steve Saleen claims that the car generates its entire bodyweight at sea level in downforce at 160 mph), its design works quite well at both slicing through air and utilizing it for high speed stability.
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Old 06-09-2001, 03:29 AM   #27
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JD... you are too kind

thanx so much for the nice comments, I really do have a problem with this stuff, don't i? lol


I too love the Saleen S7. But I believe, that while it is a wonderful car, and I'm proud to say its built in my country (although CA, not Michigan) it has its own problems. Yes, when I came upon a pumpkin organge S7 on the lower floor of Cobo Hall this year at Detroit, I wasted a whole roll on the car. It is a stunner. It shows that Saleen is not just a tuner, and is a force to be rekoned with, and shows that the US market isn't just the big three, america has a cottage industry of formidable proportions. But it isn't perfect either. The shape is extremely long because the long flat shape increases downforce, right? its why the xj220 was long, and why the last mclarens had length extensions. Ferrari foregoes such extensions to pull off the same downforce effects with the 360 modena through greater knowledge of aerodynamics and smart underbody airflow. As a result, the 360 is a pure form, clearly ferrari, and the saleen is derivative. The saleen's best bits (bodywork forward of A-pillar, roofline, roof scoop, door treatments) are copied from the mclaren f1, and while the s7 never has to worry about being parked next to one for accidental comparison (there are fewer than 10 f1's in the us, and ralph lauren has 2.), the whole of the automotive world can recognize the similarity. The weaker stylistic bits of the s7 are the excess of slats. Steve Saleen says an exotic car needs louvers, I think it needs stylistic balance. The tall slats in the side aft of the doors are fine, but the vents in the channel below the door could use half the vent count. At the number the s7 has, the excess can't possibly be improving airflow much, if at all, and the need for certain vents to draw a familial resemblance to his modified ford's is exaggerated. The Saleen is a complete car, well- built, really fast, very stable, and will eventually be revered in a better light than most people cast for the US auto industry.

But I believe that S7's role has been overstated. There is a car, built in just outside palm springs, in florida, called the Mosler Mt900. 900 was the target weight in kilograms, which is under 2000 lbs, and the mosler misses that mark by about 600 lbs or so, but the mosler is still a more worthy candidate for your dreams. The mosler, like the saleen, is a carbon-fiber bodied, aluminum underwork, american v8- derived, mid-engine road rocket barely taller than 40 inches. But the mosler, whose drivetrain spawns from the corvette, comes in $220,000 LESS than the entry price of the $380,000 Saleen S7. For a bit more than $160,000, mosler's mt900 cracks to 60 in 3.5 seconds, way ahead of the 7-liter saleen, which claims to just be "under 4." a half second between 3 and 4 seconds is more dramatic than a half second between 6 and 7 seconds when you are talking about horizontal g's induced on the driver when accelerating from rest to maximum legal speeds. The Mosler's stock 345 hp 5.7 liter LS1 v8 is rather unmolested from its installation in the corvette, and I believe that large amounts of its suspension hardware also stems from the corvette, but the chassis itself is unique componentry, should u be thinking this be a monstrosity similar to the late gisser "mid-engined corvette".( I remember this advertisements... "Buy our car, buy our stock!"...please...). The mosler graced the cover of Car and Driver a few months back, breaking 100 mph in a shade over 8 seconds, onward to a gearing-limited 155 mph. Its short geared, but for daily use, are you really planning to go faster than that? The Unigraphics solutions- rendered body resembles the Saleen's profile, but its body has only arcs where the saleen has corners, its overhangs are short and more manageable where the saleens will be cracked when going up ramps or driveways. But, you say, how can I consider a cheaper car with 345 hp from a 5.7 when the saleen is clearly not meant to be a bargain and offers 550 hp from a 7-liter? B/c I've only been talking about the entry level- mosler. For 250-260K (120-130K less dollars than a saleen s7), Mosler will offer the consumer his twin-turboed mt900, courtesy of lingenfelter's hp shop in decatur indiana, about an hour from where I write this article. That motor has 650 hp and similar torque, and suddenly where the base mt900 is comparable to the s7, this car rockets past. It hasn't been tested yet, but you can bet that with a ~2700 lb curb weight and 650 hp, the twin-turbo mt900, which has a slightly better power to weight ratio than a mclaren F1, and much shorter gearing (ok, maybe they'll change that), the mosler will be grabbing 60 in about 3, 100 very close to 6, and probably top 240 with ease. My confidence is well-founded. Top speed is determined largely by 3 things: hp, drag coefficient, and enough downforce to make the driver confident enough to go that fast. For comparsion, the Mclaren F1, in its final road-going iteration in 1996, ran 241 mph. It had 627 hp. The Mosler has 650. The Mclaren had a drag coefficient of .34. The Mosler's is .25 (industry-leading, tied with new Mercedes C-class, and Lexus LS430, I think). Finally, where Top Gear magazine's Jeremy Clarkson called the Mclaren tricky at the limit due to a lack of rear-end stability, the Mosler has much longer, articulated bodywork where the mclaren had its gorgeous but bob-tailed dimensions.

This is the car to worship, and its a relative bargain. The base car should be enough to be the fastest thing for sale in the US when Mosler starts selling them later this year. At 160 grand, you could have a mosler mt900, a dodge viper, and a corvette z06, and maybe a lexus sc430 for the price of a single saleen s7.

If you've got the dough, ask warren mosler to build you an mt900 to your liking at:
http://www.mt900.com
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Old 06-09-2001, 03:43 AM   #28
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geez, I should really be ashamed of myself. I forgot this was a f60 forum. The f60 is really going to be a great competitor when Ferrari finishes it. I hope they don't hold back. It certainly has its work cut out for it, facing all kinds of competition:

-Bugatti EB16/4 Veyronlink
-Lamborghini Diablo Replacement
-Porsche Carrera GT www.porscheusa.com
-Ultima GTR and Can-am Ultima cars
-Stealth B6
stealth cars
-Mosler MT900 and MT900TT Mosler cars
-Saleen S7 Saleen cars
-Pagani Zonda C12 and C12S Modena Design/ Pagani Autos
-all those nutty TVRs: Cerbera 4.5, SPEED 12, Tuscan STVR engineering
-Ascari KZ1 Ascari Cars
-Dodge Viper GTS '03 (500 hp/500+ lb/ft, 500 cubic inches), as well as all the modifications ligenfelter and hennessey have planned for the still-understressed block
-Current Hennessey Vipers (viper people are ferrari f50 and f60 people who grew up in texas, lets face it)
Hennessey Motorsports
-Ligenfelter modified Vetteslingenfelter
-Vision K2 visionK2.com

HAVE FUN BROWSING! the more we all know about the competition, the better the world can judge whether ferrari tried hard enough...
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Old 06-09-2001, 05:23 PM   #29
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Exclamation Holy shit!!!

What involved responses. Well, I too read about the Mosler MT900, and I agree that its numbers are fantastic. Warren Mosler is a body designer without equal (just imagine if he'd been able to make the MT900 with the Raptor split-window windshield that Trenne simply refused to allow the MT900 to be produced with - perhaps the numbers would be even more staggering). Seems to have absolutely no short-comings... but I am just not stirred by its design the in the same way the S7 makes me feel. But I agree with your commentary 100%

However, if I failed to mention it here, the be-all end-all sports car in my book is the Koenigsegg CC. Here's some more info on it (note 0-60 = 3.2 seconds, top speed = 242 mph, curb weight = 2,425 lbs.): http://supercars.net/SDBQ?i=667
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Old 06-11-2001, 02:37 PM   #30
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Alot of those cars I would get before I could afford an F60. Its more than just numbers, its the whole EXPERIENCE
I will read all the post tommorrow, and put down a more involved opinion.
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