Lost to Acura CL types S

[JeEvE]

My friend has a 03 TL-S, almost the same as the CL-S? Very nice car. I did a few runs with him, hes stock and my 98 Max 5spd just has a hacked airbox. He uses gate shifting...not SS because its slower for him, he beat by almost a car. With a few mods and better shifting (learned stick 2 months ago) I think I would be able to keep up with him. A max "NOS, Headers, Intakes. ETC." should be able to take take a CL-S and the tranny should hold it. Btw headers doesnt do much for an NA Max.

[skids929]

Welp, I can't definitively speak for a cl s-type, but I can say (hopefully without getting berated) that my 2003 Accord V-6 (with no Mods) is faster by quite a bit than my almost new 4th generation Maxima SE (29k Miles on it-no mods)-I have tested it several times. My Accord V-6 has a 5 sp auto trans with 240 HP and it really puts the Max to shame in a straight quarter mile, so I don't know what some of you are talking about the CL S-type not beating a 4th gen Max, because the CL will beat my Accord, which will beat a 4th gen Max. So use logic, and be realistic, and swallow some of your Nissan pride, because it is FACT.

I have owned Hondas for years, and everything and I mean EVERYTHING, is better built than a Nissan. Reliability wise and performance wise. I can say this because I own both, and love both, but realistically Honda makes a better product, better fit & finish-thats why there are more on the road.

By todays standards & pricing the new TL Acura competes directly with the new Max. I have driven both, and although it has 5 (measely less horse) the TL BLOWS away the new 6th gen Max. Once again proving Honda products have an edge.

[Maxxima_97]

awfully bold statements; the heat is coming...

Originally Posted by skids929

Welp, I can't definitively speak for a cl s-type, but I can say (hopefully without getting berated) that my 2003 Accord V-6 (with no Mods) is faster by quite a bit than my almost new 4th generation Maxima SE (29k Miles on it-no mods)-I have tested it several times. My Accord V-6 has a 5 sp auto trans with 240 HP and it really puts the Max to shame in a straight quarter mile, so I don't know what some of you are talking about the CL S-type not beating a 4th gen Max, because the CL will beat my Accord, which will beat a 4th gen Max. So use logic, and be realistic, and swallow some of your Nissan pride, because it is FACT.

I have owned Hondas for years, and everything and I mean EVERYTHING, is better built than a Nissan. Reliability wise and performance wise. I can say this because I own both, and love both, but realistically Honda makes a better product, better fit & finish-thats why there are more on the road.

By todays standards & pricing the new TL Acura competes directly with the new Max. I have driven both, and although it has 5 (measely less horse) the TL BLOWS away the new 6th gen Max. Once again proving Honda products have an edge.

[thrasher]

I have ran a few, haven't lost yet...totally destroyed one of them, prolly bad driver though. The new TL probably is faster than the 6th gen, but anyone who buys a new Maxima over a G35 deserves to lose anyways. A 6 sp. G35 will piss on a TL, while costing less and looking a whole lot better doing it.

EDIT: Don't say G35 isn't direct competitor for TL, that is invalid at this point. Infiniti chose, correctly, to send power through the rear wheels for its new sports/entry luxury sedan. Acura, on the other hand, chose to go wrong wheel drive and suffers the consequence. Advantage: Infiniti (owned by Nissan)

[BP2K2Max]

Originally Posted by skids929

Welp, I can't definitively speak for a cl s-type, but I can say (hopefully without getting berated) that my 2003 Accord V-6 (with no Mods) is faster by quite a bit than my almost new 4th generation Maxima SE (29k Miles on it-no mods)-I have tested it several times. My Accord V-6 has a 5 sp auto trans with 240 HP and it really puts the Max to shame in a straight quarter mile, so I don't know what some of you are talking about the CL S-type not beating a 4th gen Max, because the CL will beat my Accord, which will beat a 4th gen Max. So use logic, and be realistic, and swallow some of your Nissan pride, because it is FACT.



By todays standards & pricing the new TL Acura competes directly with the new Max. I have driven both, and although it has 5 (measely less horse) the TL BLOWS away the new 6th gen Max. Once again proving Honda products have an edge.

my friend has an 01 cl type s and it's not all that fast, i could hang with him in my 4th gen and when i got my y pipe i'd pull on him and he had 260 hp and 213 lbs/tq. the CL S weighs 3400 lbs., a whole 1/4 ton more than a 4th gen max. so once you factor in the weight (100lbs=~10hp) you're realitically comparing a 210hp car to a 190 hp car, they both have similar tq Acura has the advantage by a measly 8 lbs of tq pushing an extra 500 lbs of body weight. he was auto i was 5 speed so it's totally feasible. we never got to really race but we'd always go cruising together and one time we were just flying from like 30 mph up to 130+ and neither one of our cars made any significant headway against the other. since the acura boasts 70 more hp I'd say even if it tied the max,
it lost.

Originally Posted by skids929

I have owned Hondas for years, and everything and I mean EVERYTHING, is better built than a Nissan. Reliability wise and performance wise. I can say this because I own both, and love both, but realistically Honda makes a better product, better fit & finish-thats why there are more on the road.

dude performance wise my ass. i had a 96 SE-R that would consistently put SI civics to shame and any integra's below Gs-r's and maybe even a gsr, i never raced one in it. my 190 hp 95 maxima smoked gsr's, hung with type r's (yes i beat one once) and type S's, and murdered preludes making the same 190 hp. I killed a 200 hp RSX type S with 3 kids+myself in my car versus this one kid and his girlfriend in his car,beaten by at least 4 cars. if you take a 5th gen maxima with 227 hp and race a regular cl or tl (not type S) making thr dame hp The Acrua'll get murdered, the only way it could compete was to up the hp to 260. that's why the CL type S came out in 01, to top the best selling V6, the maxima. then was redesigned again in 04, to top the best selling V6 maxima, again. so it finally did, big deal. it's about damn time.

Honda/Acura's been trying to best nissan for the last 10 years by waiting until nissans new vehicles are released and then trying to make something better and failing. in 1995 the 4th gen maxima is introduced and is given title "best v6 engine in it's class". that same year acura introduced the 95 TL with 227 hp trying to best nissan, they failed. in 2001 after nissan had won its 6th "best v6 in it's class" award, acura tries to best it with the type S, and failed, nissan STILL got best v6 in it's class with an engine at a 23 hp defecit. now the 2k4 maxima comes out with 265 hp and low and behold, here come the new acura TL with 270 hp. Not to mention that Acura is honda's top of the line name. it's not even infiniti they're competing with, it's "low end" nissan.

[Frezny]

Originally Posted by skids929

my 2003 Accord V-6 (with no Mods) is faster by quite a bit than my almost new 4th generation Maxima SE (29k Miles on it-no mods)-I have tested it several times

Are you speaking of 0-150MPH, 1/4 mile time, or other MPH ranges? There is not question, that most cars of equal HP/Weight ratios will outrun a 4th Gen Maxima on top, as the engine falls on it's face after 5200 - 5500 RPMS.

. My Accord V-6 has a 5 sp auto trans with 240 HP and it really puts the Max to shame in a straight quarter mile, so I don't know what some of you are talking about the CL S-type not beating a 4th gen Max, because the CL will beat my Accord, which will beat a 4th gen Max. So use logic, and be realistic, and swallow some of your Nissan pride, because it is FACT.

Ok, lets talk fact.

Honda Accord LX-V6 (lightest V6)
Curb Weight: 3274
Crank HP: 240
Crank TQ: 212
%20 drivetrain lose (average)
WHP: 192
WTQ: 169.6
Power to Weight: .0586
TQ to Weight: .0518
Magazine 1/4 mile times: ?

2k1 CL-S
Curb Weight: 3510
Crank HP: 260
Crank TQ: 232
%20 drivetrain lose (average)
WHP: 208
WTQ: 185.6
Power to Weight: .0592
TQ to Weight: ..0528
Magazine 1/4 mile times: 14.6 - 15.1

4th Gen Maxima (lightest)
Curb Weight: 3000 (actually slightly less, but I won't split hairs)
Crank HP: 190
Crank TQ: 205
%20 drivetrain lose (average)
WHP: 152
WTQ: 164
Power to Weight: ..0506
TQ to Weight: .0546
Magazine 1/4 mile times: 14.7 - 15.3

Now, although these number are highly inacturate, they are grounds for comparison. Having a better TQ to Weight ratio, only helps shoot the Max to equal if not better 1/4 mile times than the Accord. Also, the fact of the matter is, that between the V6 Accord and the 4th Gen Max, the max has a higher hp, tq average. The area under the curve is more inportant than Peak numbers.

[IMG=http://forums.maxima.org/customavatars/avatar5928_0.gif]

It's this very same fact that gives the Max a 1/4 mile battle with the CL-S, which, as I described in a previous post, is why it comes down to the driver.

I have owned Hondas for years, and everything and I mean EVERYTHING, is better built than a Nissan. Reliability wise and performance wise. I can say this because I own both, and love both, but realistically Honda makes a better product, better fit & finish-thats why there are more on the road.

Well, to say EVERYTHING would be a little over dramitic, now wouldn't it? I admit, that I do like Honda's build quality, but I would take a VQ against any engine that Honda had on the consumer market. Top ten list...blah...blah..blah... I'm not going to go there. The reason for more Hondas on the road then Nissans, is because of company marketing and structure, not because of "better" product vs. "not a better product". Toyota makes one of the safest, most fuel efficient cars in the world...but how many of them do you see on the road? It's a matter of persepective with many hidden aspects, not simply, "My dad can beat up your Dad!". Oh, and BTW, ever heard of the rb26dett? It's the engint that propelled the Skyline GTR to nearly a decade of victories.

By todays standards & pricing the new TL Acura competes directly with the new Max. I have driven both, and although it has 5 (measely less horse) the TL BLOWS away the new 6th gen Max. Once again proving Honda products have an edge.

Using one product as a comparrison is hardly evidence by which to base such a bold statement on.

[skids929]

Well, to say EVERYTHING would be a little over dramitic, now wouldn't it? I admit, that I do like Honda's build quality, but I would take a VQ against any engine that Honda had on the consumer market. Top ten list...blah...blah..blah... I'm not going to go there. The reason for more Hondas on the road then Nissans, is because of company marketing and structure, not because of "better" product vs. "not a better product". Toyota makes one of the safest, most fuel efficient cars in the world...but how many of them do you see on the road? It's a matter of persepective with many hidden aspects, not simply, "My dad can beat up your Dad!". Oh, and BTW, ever heard of the rb26dett? It's the engint that propelled the Skyline GTR to nearly a decade of victories.



Using one product as a comparrison is hardly evidence by which to base such a bold statement on.[/quote]

How may Toyota's do I see on the road? A whole hell of alot, thats why they have the #1 selling car in America. And correction, Honda always leads the charge on fuel efficiency, always have, always will. Nissan's marketing campaign in the last few years has been much stronger more noticible than either Honda or Toyota put together. Honda sells more for two reasons, pricing, build quality and the name. Nissan is still recovering from the the backlash of some poor decisions and virtual bankruptcy in the 90's.

Bottom line is, I am not here to split hairs and look at stats too much or compare the companies annual reports..Analysis paralysis if you ask me. I can say for certain my 2003 Accord smokes my 4th gen Max.

[BP2K2Max]

Originally Posted by skids929

I can say for certain my 2003 Accord smokes my 4th gen Max.

not to beat a dead horse, but it should. it's the same size engine with 50 more horses; too bad it took honda 8 years to top what nissan did while on the verge of bankruptcy; with almost any nissan versus a comprable honda the nissan comes out on top.
Honda's got better sales for one reason. Civics. ask yourself how many honda's you see, then ask yourself how many of them are civics(del sol's/ crx's) if you exclude the civics, then you don't see all that many honda's, not around here anyway. 11 of my friends own honda's. i swear 8 are civics, 2 are accord's and the other's the 3.2 type S. it's funny cuz my one friend with a 96 accord is always driving his girlfriends 99 altima.

[skids929]

Originally Posted by BP2K2Max

not to beat a dead horse, but it should. it's the same size engine with 50 more horses; too bad it took honda 8 years to top what nissan did while on the verge of bankruptcy; with almost any nissan versus a comprable honda the nissan comes out on top.
Honda's got better sales for one reason. Civics. ask yourself how many honda's you see, then ask yourself how many of them are civics(del sol's/ crx's) if you exclude the civics, then you don't see all that many honda's, not around here anyway. 11 of my friends own honda's. i swear 8 are civics, 2 are accord's and the other's the 3.2 type S. it's funny cuz my one friend with a 96 accord is always driving his girlfriends 99 altima.

If I had a choice, I would drive a 99 anything over a 96, it is newer. I don't disagree with you on the 50 more horse point you brought up, it is exactly what I am trying to say to the person who earlier in this thread claims their 4th gen Max could beat a Type S. Paaaaalease!

[Frezny]

Originally Posted by skids929

How may Toyota's do I see on the road? A whole hell of alot, thats why they have the #1 selling car in America. And correction, Honda always leads the charge on fuel efficiency, always have, always will.

You're not reading my post accurately. I did not ask how many Toyotas you see on the road, nor did I imply that Honda was not concerned with fuel economy, but rather to point out two facts.
1. "Better" is a subjective term.
2. Based on the response you have about fuel economy, it would appear that you value it. The #1 rated hybrid car in the country right now is the Toyota Prius, not a Honda. But, there aren't very many of them on the road, now are there?

Bottom line is, I am not here to split hairs and look at stats too much or compare the companies annual reports..Analysis paralysis if you ask me. I can say for certain my 2003 Accord smokes my 4th gen Max.

In a 1/4 mile race, a 4th gen 5spd Max should be able to take the accord, but the unltimate vicotory goes to the better driver. After the 1/4 mile, the accord has more top end power to take the Max. Maybe your view about your Max is a result of being able to drive the Accord better, that your Max is out of tune, or that the Accord "feels" faster.

In any event, the dead horse is more black and blue than it has ever been. Facts are facts, and opinions are opinions. Only facts can be proven.

[Frezny]

Originally Posted by skids929

...what I am trying to say to the person who earlier in this thread claims their 4th gen Max could beat a Type S. Paaaaalease!

Offer us some proof. The numbers I've given prove that it is possible in a 1/4 mile race. Show us something that proves it is not possible.

[thrasher]

Originally Posted by Frezny

Offer us some proof. The numbers I've given prove that it is possible in a 1/4 mile race. Show us something that proves it is not possible.

Of course it is possible. But anything pre 5.5 Gen will have a damn hard time keeping up, assuming same tranny types. A decent driver in the CL-S will beat a very good driver in the Max.

[Maxxima_97]

someone pointed out earlier and I agree; Nissan is in Honda's class while Acura is in Infiniti's. each has it's premium line. The fact that the Max vs. the Acura is even a discussion is saying alot about Nissan - you're talking about running a $45k car against a $25k car and it's competetive. There isn't a generation of Accord that comes close to competing with the corresponding Maxima generation. Similarly the TL or CL's shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as Infiniti with regard to performance.

Originally Posted by skids929

If I had a choice, I would drive a 99 anything over a 96, it is newer. I don't disagree with you on the 50 more horse point you brought up, it is exactly what I am trying to say to the person who earlier in this thread claims their 4th gen Max could beat a Type S. Paaaaalease!

[skids929]

Originally Posted by Frezny

You're not reading my post accurately. I did not ask how many Toyotas you see on the road, nor did I imply that Honda was not concerned with fuel economy, but rather to point out two facts.
1. "Better" is a subjective term.
2. Based on the response you have about fuel economy, it would appear that you value it. The #1 rated hybrid car in the country right now is the Toyota Prius, not a Honda. But, there aren't very many of them on the road, now are there?



In a 1/4 mile race, a 4th gen 5spd Max should be able to take the accord, but the unltimate vicotory goes to the better driver. After the 1/4 mile, the accord has more top end power to take the Max. Maybe your view about your Max is a result of being able to drive the Accord better, that your Max is out of tune, or that the Accord "feels" faster.

In any event, the dead horse is more black and blue than it has ever been. Facts are facts, and opinions are opinions. Only facts can be proven.

Dude, go take your twisted logic and sell crazy someplace else, this is not a philosophy debate...You never mentioned 'hybrids' until it suited your offbase argument. At this point I am confused, and in fact may even be permanently dumber from having read everything you wrote.

Like I said, and I will repeat it for you since you are having trouble understanding my simple point, my Accord 'feels' faster than my Maxima because IT IS faster than my Max (I have 50 more HP to prove it to you). No 1/4 mile race and the 4th gen takes the Accord, NO NO NO...I OWN BOTH AND THE ACCORD BEATS THE 4th GEN! Driver or no driver, smokes it, beats it, top end, bottom end..Jeez whatta ya think I am lying to you here or is this just some exercise in what you think is intelligence? Let me simplify it ACCORD = FASTER, 4th Gen Maxima (not out of tune-29k miles) = SLOWER. That should help you Simon.


P.S. Proof shmoof skeptic/data boy...I have no reason to tell fibs or insert 'opinions' here, and thats about all you need for proof, and the fact that I own both cars and you DON'T..But if you really need proof meet me in a 4th gen Max and I will show the empirical data you so desire when I whiz by you in my Accord.

This argument is done, moving on..Peace

[Frezny]

Originally Posted by skids929

You never mentioned 'hybrids' until it suited your offbase argument

I simply worded it incorrectly. The #1 rated fuel efficient car in the country, which happens to be a hybrid, is the Toyota Prius. It's rating is based on build quality, drivability, safetey, etc...

Like I said, and I will repeat it for you since you are having trouble understanding my simple point, my Accord 'feels' faster than my Maxima because IT IS faster than my Max

It is not faster that a 5spd 4th gen in a 0 - 1/4 mile race. But, it is close enough that driver ability will dictate the win.

(I have 50 more HP to prove it to you).

And I'm glad that you, like most of of the people purchasing cars, believe the peak HP numbers means you are faster. As I said, Honda's marketing has put them on top of the game, and it is because of people like you believing in "fluff" like this. If I have a 5-10 HP gain over you through the entire upswing of the RPM range, with the exception of the final 1000 rmps, where you peak higher than I peak, I am still faster. How much time do you spend in that rpm range vs the amount of time you spend in the range when I have more HP?

Jeez whatta ya think I am lying to you here or is this just some exercise in what you think is intelligence?

No, I just think that you are missinformed and generalizing things too much.

P.S. Proof shmoof skeptic/data boy

You don't have to believe me, that's fine. I just don't want the other people who are reading this to take your opinion as fact without data to support your arguement.

But if you really need proof meet me in a 4th gen Max and I will show the empirical data you so desire when I whiz by you in my Accord.

Anybody else want to take this challenge with a 5sp Max? I don't have my Max anymore. I would be willing to bet that if you are both average drag drivers, the Max will win the 1/4 mile.

You are right, this argument is dead, but it was fun while it lasted.

To all those reading, take from this what you will, but if there is one thing you take away from this, know this. Peak HP numbers are just a very small measurment of an engine/car's ability to accelerate. The total HP/TQ curve is what is important. Take total measurements and compare them with things such as drive train lose, drag coefficient and power/weight ratios, and you can roughly calculate how thing actually rate.