Unusual Brake Rotor Damage (pics)

[Wave Grease]

Hello,

I was hoping some of you could help me diagnose what has gone wrong with my brakes. The issue existed since I bought the car about 2 years ago.

I had brake vibration and roaring during highway speed deceleration. I figured the OEM rotors were damaged (With only 17,000 miles) and replaced them with the pads. The OEM rotors did not have any visible damage. (Logistical isses prevented me from getting them turned.)

The vibration went away with the new brakes (Duralast Gold - cheap stuff) for a couple of weeks until I had to decelerate rather rapidly on the autobahn. It started as a roaring sound(Similar to the jakebrake of a semi- only not as loud) and became a vibration once again.The vibration slowly made itself known at lower and lower speeds over the months. It got to the point when the judder was noticeable when braking at 50mph.

Here are pictures of the damaged rotors:

http://s1189.photobucket.com/albums/z430/davidchaviano/

The backsides of the rotors had deeply raised rings around the whole braking surface. The backside pads were also damaged. They had brake material stuck inside the middle gap of the pad, like it had melted or something. They all had plenty of material left. The front surface and pads looked okay.

The most curious issue is why the outer sides of the rotors appear normal when the inner sides are being destroyed.

I had some mechanics take a look and they had not seen anything like this. They suggested the rotors were of poor quality.

Last week I replaced the brakes again hoping Brembo rotors with Honda pads would do the trick. No dice, a week and a half later, I had to rapidly decelerate from 80 mph to 60 mph and the brakes roared in the same fashion (No vibration - yet).

What is going on? Is it possible I did not install them properly? (They only go in one way!)

Note: The caliper piston is not sticking. It reset without issues. And as far as I know, the brakes do not drag - the car rolls freely in neutral.

It is a stock 2005 Honda Civic EX sedan with 72,000 miles. The issue has persisted with varying severity since I bought the car with 17,000 miles. I commute a minimum of 60 miles a day 5 days a week. To include autobahn and some city driving. The brakes see regular but not severe use.

Thanks for any help.

[shorod]

Welcome to the forum!

The pitting makes it appear as if either the material of the rotors is bad of maybe the calipers are not floating properly. When I've seen what I believe was bad iron used in rotors in the past, it was much more random and across the entire braking surface, not in bands in the center. My thoughts on a dragging pad that caused severe heat would seem more practical to cause issues to the outboard side of the rotor.

I'm not sure what to tell you, other than to carefully inspect everthing, make sure all the parts that are supposed to slide do, and avoid water puddles during or immediately after hard braking events.

-Rod

[Wave Grease]

Thanks.

I re examined the brakes and discovered one of the passenger side sliding pins (The ones with the little dust boots) on the caliper bracket is stuck. How can I free it? I tried pulling with pliers to no avail. It only rotates.

Could this be the source of the problem although only one out of two on the passenger side is stuck? (The two on the drivers side are fine - keep in mind, there was damage on both rotors)

Also I re-installed the outer pad shims. I had omitted them because I was told they caused more trouble than anything else. (Squealing) And I scraped the hub surface clean of any residual rust/paint.

Would the vehicle still roll freely on slight inclines with dragging pads?

[inafogg]

Originally Posted by Wave Grease

Thanks.

I re examined the brakes and discovered one of the passenger side sliding pins (The ones with the little dust boots) on the caliper bracket is stuck. How can I free it? I tried pulling with pliers to no avail. It only rotates.

Could this be the source of the problem although only one out of two on the passenger side is stuck? (The two on the drivers side are fine - keep in mind, there was damage on both rotors)

Also I re-installed the outer pad shims. I had omitted them because I was told they caused more trouble than anything else. (Squealing) And I scraped the hub surface clean of any residual rust/paint.

Would the vehicle still roll freely on slight inclines with dragging pads?

the slide pin should move in/out back n forth.try some wd or pb blaster
then work it until it comes off.then clean pin wire wheel/brush relube pin
reinstall making sure boot seats on both ends

yes if a pad is dragging car will still roll freely

[Wave Grease]

Originally Posted by inafogg

the slide pin should move in/out back n forth.try some wd or pb blaster
then work it until it comes off.then clean pin wire wheel/brush relube pin
reinstall making sure boot seats on both ends

yes if a pad is dragging car will still roll freely

Thanks, I'll try this tomorrow. Unfortunately, I'll have to drive the way it is for the time being. Is anti-seize good for lubricating these pins?

What influence does one stuck pin on the passenger side have on the driver's side if any? Is the braking force evened out to prevent pull? Perhaps this explains the damage done to the driver's side as well. I hope this is the solution.

[shorod]

You need to free up the pin regardless, it's a problem. I would not expect it to have any effect on the opposite side by itself, but if one pin is seized, the others are probably not as free-floating as they should be. The rotating wheel will continue to press the caliper back and wear the brake pad, so even with the seized pin the wheel will still get to a point where it rolls, until the brakes are again applied, then it will again drag.

I would not suggest using anti-seize, it will probably not stay where you intend it to stay. Instead, I would suggest using high temperature synthetic grease. Your local parts store will probably sell little packs of the brake grease for about $1 each. You will probably want 1 pack per caliper.

As for the shims, they are more likely to reduce/eliminate squeal rather than cause squeal. I'd suggest you leave them installed.

-Rod

[Moppie]

Looks a lot like the Calipers are not sliding properly, on both sides of the car.
Unusual, but it does happen, and it's the only variable you have no changed.

I would remove both calipers and inspect them properly on a bench.
It maybe something simple like the sliding pins need to be properly lubricated, or you might need to rebuild, or replace them.

[Wave Grease]

Thanks for the information everyone.

I tried my best to free the stuck pin with penetrating oil and channel locks to no avail. I have since ordered a new caliper bracket, pins, boots and some of that ceramic based brake lubricant from Rock Auto.

I will replace the passenger side bracket and re-lubricate the drivers side pins.

Unfortunately it will take about ten days for the parts to get here. (I live in Germany) And I will have to drive the car as-is. The new pads and rotors still look okay, I hope they last until the parts arrive.

[BullShifter]

Originally Posted by Wave Grease

I had some mechanics take a look and they had not seen anything like this. They suggested the rotors were of poor quality.

You need to find new mechanics. I see this almost every day.

You need to use good pads, not Duralast. Make sure all rust is cleaned from the caliper bracket - were the pads sit, then lube. Make sure the clips are clean and lubed. Make sure the slide pins are cleaned and lubed. Make sure to lube the backs of the pads and the part that goes into the bracket. If the pads can't move freely rust can happen like that or from poor quality pads not aggressive enough to keep the rotor clean.

To free a stuck slide pin I squirt the pin in the rubber bushing. Hit the bracket with a hammer, repeat as needed. Put the slide in a vice and work the caliper off. Some times they are completely stuck but more times than not I can get them out. Then you need to clean inside the bracket where the pin goes and LUBE, LUBE, LUBE! I take my brakes a part at least once a year to clean and re lube every thing. Also clean the hub before installing a new rotors.

I also suggest not using anti-seize it's not a lubricant. You can use it on the bolts. Use the correct stuff.

[Wave Grease]

Okay, I finally received all of the parts.

Upon insertion of the pins into the bracket, one of the rubber boots split like a banana! (Not all the way down, but the tear is through the retaining collar at the top and very noticeable)

WTF? All parts were new and lubed with the proper lubricant.

Is it a waste of time to install the new bracket with a torn boot? (I guess I'll order another set... another 10 days)

[BullShifter]

You can install it with the torn boot but I would get a boot on asap. You should be able to get a hardware kit that includes the boots.

[Moppie]

Originally Posted by Wave Grease

Okay, I finally received all of the parts.

Upon insertion of the pins into the bracket, one of the rubber boots split like a banana! (Not all the way down, but the tear is through the retaining collar at the top and very noticeable)

WTF? All parts were new and lubed with the proper lubricant.

Is it a waste of time to install the new bracket with a torn boot? (I guess I'll order another set... another 10 days)

Can you use on of your old boots?
Just give it a good clean first.

Let us know how the new calipers behave, should be interesting.

[Wave Grease]

I re-used one of the old boots from the one free pin on the old bracket. I have not decelerated from high speed yet to check what it sounds like, hopefully the issue is resolved now.

Moppie, to clarify I just replaced the passenger side caliper bracket because one of the pins was seized, not the caliper. (Unless the bracket is called a caliper too?)

Due to weather and traffic conditions, I was not able to recreate the condition that makes the roaring sound. I thought I heard a faint roar during deceleration once, but I will chalk that up to my imagination until I can really test it.

I hope this does not turn into a caliper replacement project.

Edit to add: What is the difference between an unloaded, semi loaded and loaded caliper?

[Wave Grease]

By the way, this is identical to the "roaring" sound I have been describing (Skip to 50 seconds into the video) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q0dr3Fzc2A

The sound is identical in every way except volume. Frequency is about the same when braking firmly at 70-80 mph. However, my brakes are nowhere near as loud, consider this a very exaggerated example.

[Moppie]

Hopefully it is just the sliding pins then

Originally Posted by Wave Grease

By the way, this is identical to the "roaring" sound I have been describing (Skip to 50 seconds into the video) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q0dr3Fzc2A

The sound is identical in every way except volume. Frequency is about the same when braking firmly at 70-80 mph. However, my brakes are nowhere
near as loud, consider this a very exaggerated example.

Are you sure you weren't driving beside a truck when it happened?

That video is showing the noise from a diesel engine brake.
They basically block the exhaust with a valve that builds massive compression in the engine, which exaggerates any engine braking effect while it's in gear.