"American" vs. "Import"

[DinanM3_S2]

Originally Posted by Nayr747

Uh, no... You must be thinking of the English Norris Designs one. That's an anomoly. And if you want to use that car as an example, it's RWD, weighs almost nothing, and has more hp than the AMS *AWD* Evo that is full weight, yet it is still slower(AMS Evo is 9.4, ND Evo is 9.71). Hmmm....

I disagree that RWD is better than AWD around a track or on windy roads. Real life example: Tein has seven identically setup cars: an STi, an RX-8, an Evo, a FairladyZ (350Z), GS300, JDM Fit, and Vitz. Now you can see that there are AWD, RWD, and FWD cars in there. They raced them down one of Japan's windy touges. Here's a quote from the article:

"As exiting as rear-drive platforms are on the mountain pass, the last car to drive, the TEIN Evo, epitomizes the touge experience. Its precise steering, huge grip and docile balance sets this run apart from all the others by integrating the driver, machine and road into one sensation. I'm no londer battling the touqe in a car; the Evo is now an extension of me as if in a video game, where the dash, wheel, contols and even windshield have disppeared from notice."

You'll see this same thing in all of the videos, articles, etc that I posted. The Evo does not understear. It is nuetral (i.e. the best). And it can get it's back out if you want it to. The STi on the other hand does understear.


Wow, a dedicated, more expensive, purpose hand built track car beat the four door, A/C, grocery getting sedan. There will always be something faster and that Noble is a great car.

Like I said earlier: Evos don't understear, and there are in fact RWD competitors to the Evo and STi such as a 350Z, RX-8, etc... and they lose.

First of all, you spell understeer wrong and its driving me nuts. Second, I really don't consider the 350z and RX-8 direct competitors of the Evo and STi. The RX-8 is significantly less expensive then the others, and the Z isn't nearly as focused. The Z was built as a road car, while the STi and Evo are more performance cars. You can see this in the level of trim and stock features on the Z. You pay for alot of things that hurt performance.

The fact is, when you take cars that are otherwise identical with the exception of one being RWD and the other being AWD, the RWD one is usually better. Look at the AWD 3-series, G35, and 911s compared to the RWD versions. I think this is a much better way of looking at it then taking two completely different cars and comparing them because there are so many other factors that could play into it with different cars.

[Nayr747]

Originally Posted by DinanM3_S2

First of all, you spell understeer wrong and its driving me nuts. Second, I really don't consider the 350z and RX-8 direct competitors of the Evo and STi. The RX-8 is significantly less expensive then the others, and the Z isn't nearly as focused. The Z was built as a road car, while the STi and Evo are more performance cars. You can see this in the level of trim and stock features on the Z. You pay for alot of things that hurt performance.

The fact is, when you take cars that are otherwise identical with the exception of one being RWD and the other being AWD, the RWD one is usually better. Look at the AWD 3-series, G35, and 911s compared to the RWD versions. I think this is a much better way of looking at it then taking two completely different cars and comparing them because there are so many other factors that could play into it with different cars.

Yes, I can't spell very well. Although the general level of spelling proficiency in this country is far worse. And btw, you have put two seperate words together about 15 times and counting in this thread; It's *a lot* not alot. It would be like saying alittle. But anyway, you're just splitting hairs now. The RX-8 costs $2-3k less than the Evo, unless you're talking about the RS which is less expensive than the RX-8 but has less comforts.

Evos are renowned for their handling, steering, and turning abilites. Saying that they'd be better being RWD is sacrilegious. Should the Skyline also be RWD? Another thing is some people have converted Evos to RWD. And in the two cases I know of they were worse off for it. The RWD Norris Designs Evo is slower yet is lighter and has more hp than an AWD one. Rhys Millen Racing also converted one to RWD and while it still supposedly performed pretty well, it did not handle as well as a regular Evo.

Here's how I see AWD vs. RWD:
Twisty roads: AWD
Technical tracks: AWD
Tracks w/ long straightaways (Nurbugring, etc): RWD
Off-road/wet/snow/etc: AWD
Fastest possible @ drag strip: RWD
Fastest possible on street from stop: AWD
Fastest possible on street rolling start: RWD
Most fun (drifting/burnouts/etc): RWD
EDIT: forgot to add fastest on street tires: AWD

As for AWD not doing as well as RWD at the drag strip, John Shepherd's AWD Talon seemes to do well enough, runing a 7.97@179. And it will be even quicker this year. And I believe he's still running the stock 4 bolt rear end. http://shepracing.com/

To whoever said how are they identically set-up; They were all stock cars setup by Tein with thier suspension. What I meant was they didn't just use one guy's car with god knows what done to it, and some other car that's stock or something. They were all Tein's display models or whatever.

[Nayr747]

Originally Posted by DinanM3_S2

There are definitely some advantages to AWD like Jimster said, but the weight and understeer often outweigh any gains.

Not to nitpick but this is not true, and is just a generalization, even though you did say "often". Number one, there is no inherent principle in AWD cars that would make them understeer like there is with FWD cars. Number two the weight does not outweigh the gains. If you think so, prove it. I could spend a bunch of time compiling evidnece to disprove that, but the video with the SRT-4 and AWD DSM that were equally matched on the freeway yet BUS LENGTHS were put on the 2WD at the launch pretty much kills that argument. At the end of the race the AWD is still bus lengths ahead of the 2WD. If by "often" you were talking about on a track then I don't know how you would prove or disprove that exactly since controlling every factor but how many wheels are driven would be hard. I guess you could use a car like the RMR RWD Evo against a normal one but even then the car was never intended to be RWD so that may affect the results.

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

and since when was the FQ400; hand built 400bhp evo from the ralliart boys a "four door, A/C, grocery getting sedan"

True that it is not the average Evo, but it is still a production car with a 3 year, 3,000 mile waranty. But how is it not a "four door, a/c, grocery getting sedan"? Every word of that is true. It does in fact have four doors, a/c, it's a sedan, and it could be used every day to get groceries. This is the appeal of the Evo. And like Dinan was saying with the RX-8 and 350Z, I'm sure the FQ400 has many more amenities than the Noble. So if you can't compare a 350Z to an Evo then you can't compare a Noble to an Evo. And lastly, 400whp is not at all hard to get out of an Evo. They charged like $15k more for it than the standard Evo, but you could easily do it for a grand or two.

[drunken monkey]

are you aware that the Noble is easier to drive normally than the FQ400, such is the entent of work done to it? Hence, the FQ400 is just as focused for the track as the Noble is.

I really wish people would stop using the FQ400 as an example of an Evo because it is nothing like the everyday production FQ cars. Not even the 340 is as track focused as the 400 is. In everyday life, the 400 is next to undriveable.

I also wish people would stop talking about skylines as if it was only one car.
Believe it or not, there are rear wheel drive skylines, not to mention that most of the time, even the GT-R is rear wheel drive.

[Jimster]

The FQ400 is almost unusable in any urban setting, just watching Jeremy Clarkson struggle to drive it normally on the air strip (The car kept stalling and the clutch was extremely heavy) pretty much sold me on that fact....

[Nayr747]

I can't believe we're arguing about this. These cars are obviously not remotely similar.

Is it easier to drive on the street? Can you fit anything in it? Like groceries, luggage, even a golf bag? Can you take your family on a trip in it? Where would the baby seat be? The drivability issues like a heavy clutch and stalling are not inherently part of a 400whp Evo. They set it up that way, and they probably should have refined those aspects (there are many different clutches with differing pedal pressure and tuning could eliminate the stalling). If you were to build the same car, you could easily design it without those drawbacks. As for the "lag" in the video, that was just untrue. Putting the car in the WRONG gear will do that. It would be like putting the car in reverse, flooring it, and saying "Blyme, we're not going foreward!" Even though they used a laggier turbo than necessary, you would not experience lag if you're in the right gear. On the drag strip there will be no lag whatsoever. On a track is a different story.

Also, you did not prove that the FQ400 is as focused as the Noble. The Noble is a completely custom, completely hand built, track car (that can also be used on the street) with custom fabricated body panels, chasis, suspension, engine, etc, etc. Even the anti-roll bar is cutom designed by them. It doesn't even have A/C. The FQ400, on the other hand, is a factory built, mass produced car that's engine and brakes were beefed up. It has NO suspension changes from the standard Evo. And it has many more amenities than the M400. And again, 400whp is NOT hard to get out of an Evo. It doesn't even require you to change the turbo (even if Ralliart did), so full boost should come in under 3,500 rpm going to the 7k rpm redline. Just a few simple bolt ons and you're there. Here are some statistics on them:

Noble M400:
cost: 56,000-62,548 pounds
0-60: 3.5
0-100: 8 sec.
top speed: 185
1/4 mile: < mid 11s
weight: 2,336.9 lbs
peak hp: 425
number built per year: 200

Evo FQ400:
cost: 47,000 pounds
0-60: 3.5
0-100: 9.5
1/4 mile: 11s
top speed: 175
weight: 3,240 lbs
peak hp: 400
# built per year: ?

Also notice that the M400 is almost 1,000 pounds lighter, has 25 more hp, yet has about the same 1/4 mile, same 0-60, and is only 1.5 sec. quicker to 100. I guess RWD owns? The Noble is also easier to lose control of, being RWD. Example: http://videos.streetfire.net/search/...A60AA4A296.htm The Evo on the other hand is almost imposible to lose control of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVrtX5drnb8

Look at Top Gear's track chart: http://www.topgear.com/content/tgonb...times/thestig/
Notice anything odd about it? The FQ400 is the only half-way normal car near the top, beating a Noble M12, Gallardo, Exige, M5, etc (some of those had a moist or wet track though). The FQ400 is also quicker than the seven times more expensive Pagani Zonda C12 in the 1/4 (FQ400: 11s, Zonda: 12.1), and is almost a half second faster than a Carrera GT 0-60 (3.9 sec).

[Jimster]

400 whp is not hard to get out of an Evo, you're right, but with a Noble, you don't have to get that power out of it, because it already has it, you don't lose your warranty or any of the other drawbacks of modification.

Secondly, watching that video Clarkson says the ride is terrible (So clearly the ride from the factory standard Evo VIII is terrible going by your logic and it is) and it has absolutely nothing in the way of a turningcircle (Considering the number of tight turns I make a day, that makes the car effectively useless.

The engine for the Noble is not fabricated, the block is that of the Ford Mondeo ST220.

AWD is not impossible to lose control of, there are many who think that though, they're also the types who put thier WRX's, Evo's and GTRs around lamp-poles. Losing control is for n00bs to driving any way...

[drunken monkey]

for god's cake, the FQ-400 is not normal.
it only looks normal because it is based on a saloon car; the damned thing is made by the guys who prep the rally cars.

Originally Posted by Nayr747

Is it easier to drive on the street? Can you fit anything in it? Like groceries, luggage, even a golf bag? Can you take your family on a trip in it? Where would the baby seat be? The drivability issues like a heavy clutch and stalling are not inherently part of a 400whp Evo. They set it up that way, and they tprobably should have refined those aspects (there are many different clutches with differing pedal pressure and tuning could eliminate the stalling). If you were to build the same car, you could easily design it without those drawbacks. As for the "lag" in the video, that was just untrue. Putting the car in the WRONG gear will do that. It would be like putting the car in reverse, flooring it, and saying "Blyme, we're not going foreward!" Even though they used a laggier turbo than necessary, you would not experience lag if you're in the right gear. On the drag strip there will be no lag whatsoever. On a track is a different story.

what?
so as long as you can fit all that stuff in it, that makes it an every-day use-able family car?
even though it has a turning circle wider than a bus and suspension and clutch that will throw your child against its safety harness at every traffic light, if you make it as far as the traffic lights without stalling that is.

Oh yes, you can "make" a 400bhp evo yourself using more suitable parts. But then this voids the factory warrenty so this pretty much kills your argument that the FQ400 or similar is just as good as any noble because it still has factory warrenty and all that


so are we talking about the cars as being purely track machines or every day use machines? It's true turbo lag issue wouldn't matter on the track then it is true but it is very relevant for normal driving. Rev like crazy every time you come to a stand still and try to launch the car to get a fast start without stalling doesn't sound very much like use-able car.
but ahhh.... i hear you say, you can use a different clutch and turbo set-up.
what was that about warrenties again?

so to answer the first part of the bit i quoted.
no, the FQ400 is NOT easier to drive on the street.

if you are basing you defence for the AWD system by using a mix of figures for a (limited) production car that you can sort of replicate by using different tuning parts then what's stopping the noble driver doing a little tuning himself?
and eh?
what's all this junk about the noble being a cutsom blah blah blah car?
you mean that they make specific body panels and stuff for it? shock horror.
how else would it be?
they take the body panels from a different car and stick them onto the chassis?
custom roll bar?
er... because it has to fit inside the body shape?

they are a small volume car making company.
go look up what that means.

heck, what the hell am I debating this for?
if you say that ralli-team prepped car isn't a focused track car then fine.
i guess we should just ignore the simple fact that the admittedly 400ish kg lighter Noble is faster to 100.
surely the almighty benefits of AWD would've been able to handle it?
not to mention that by the time you've managed to get it cleanly off the line, the Noble drive would and a could've done two or three runs already.
so who's is the easier to drive car?

[Nayr747]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

for god's cake, the FQ-400 is not normal.
it only looks normal because it is based on a saloon car; the damned thing is made by the guys who prep the rally cars.

Okay, why do you keep saying this with nothing to back it up? As I said before it has some engine modifications, clutch and brake upgrades, and some nice-looking aero bits on the body work. And has NO suspension upgrades. Tell me how exactly that is "rally preped." I'm not saying it wans't upgraded, i.e. not concieved of from the start (M400), for straight line speed. But generally "rally preped" implies turning abilities Or where are the rally-preped drag cars? Lol. And so the suspension would be upgraded.

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

what?
so as long as you can fit all that stuff in it, that makes it an every-day use-able family car?
even though it has a turning circle wider than a bus and suspension and clutch that will throw your child against its safety harness at every traffic light, if you make it as far as the traffic lights without stalling that is.

You must not have read my post. It has stock suspension. I can't see why the turning cirlce has anything to do with engine/brake mods. Unless they fitted larger tires or spaced them wider or something. What possible other reason could there be? Look, you have to realise something about Top Gear; they play up the highs and the lows to try and be sensational to get ratings. I mean look at the episode where the FQ400 "bullies" the Murcielago into spinning out, making it look like the FQ is obviously faster. Yet the Lambo is a second or so faster around the track. The "ride that could brake your legs," horrible turning circle, stalling, and definetely turbo lag, were all likely played up for this purpose. I mean can you give just one reason why the turning cirlce or ride should be bad, other than possibly the tires?

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

Oh yes, you can "make" a 400bhp evo yourself using more suitable parts. But then this voids the factory warrenty so this pretty much kills your argument that the FQ400 or similar is just as good as any noble because it still has factory warrenty and all that

Does it have a factory warranty? Exactly what does the warranty cover? If it does have some reasonable warranty then that's a good point, and is a plus over the Evo WHEN MODIFIED YOURSELF; The FQ400 has a warranty.

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

so are we talking about the cars as being purely track machines or every day use machines? It's true turbo lag issue wouldn't matter on the track then it is true but it is very relevant for normal driving. Rev like crazy every time you come to a stand still and try to launch the car to get a fast start without stalling doesn't sound very much like use-able car.
but ahhh.... i hear you say, you can use a different clutch and turbo set-up.
what was that about warrenties again?

No, lag will be a facor on a TRACK. It will NOT be a factor on a drag strip. And what the hell are you talking about on the street? Have you ever even driven a turbocharged car? Again, the clutch issue was likely palyed up in order to be interesting. My brother has a 6 puck racing clutch just like the one on the FQ. Yeah, it took him a while to get used to it and not stall it all the time, but what do ya know, now he drives it like it just came off the Acura production line. Hmm.... When I first got my car I had never dirven a manual. I stalled it many times and still can't slip it as well as my brother can his race clutch. Does my car suck? NO, I just needed to learn how to drive it.

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

so to answer the first part of the bit i quoted.
no, the FQ400 is NOT easier to drive on the street.

I'm sorry but that really depends on your definition of "easier." You may say that's having a nice comfy ride, I may say that's being able to carry things other than yourself and one other person, and having things like A/C and ABS. Does the Noble even have airbags btw?

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

if you are basing you defence for the AWD system by using a mix of figures for a (limited) production car that you can sort of replicate by using different tuning parts then what's stopping the noble driver doing a little tuning himself?
and eh?

I don't really understand what you're trying to say here, but if your talking about the stats on the FQ400 vs. the M400 then what you're saying makes no sense. The figues are both for the two cars as they are sold from the factory, there is no "using different tuning parts"... The figures are only for straight line speed, and my question about why the 1,000 lb lighter, more hp M400 isn't really quicker than the FQ is a good one. And the Evo doesn't even have adjustable suspension to help distribute the power and get a better launch.

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

what's all this junk about the noble being a cutsom blah blah blah car?
you mean that they make specific body panels and stuff for it? shock horror.
how else would it be?
they take the body panels from a different car and stick them onto the chassis?
custom roll bar?
er... because it has to fit inside the body shape?

This is just sad. Come one man. Any normal person you asked would say that the FQ400 and M400 are completely different types of cars. It would be like saying that a Cvic and a Carrera GT are the same, or a old Shelby Cobra kit car with a chevy big block dropped in is the same as Porsche. The FQ400 started life as a normal everyday Evo, then it had some work done to the engine. Wow. The M400 was built specifically for the track. Everything about it was made specifially for that purpose. This is not the purpose of Noble, the entire company?

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

they are a small volume car making company.
go look up what that means.

Why don't you tell me oh wise one...

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

heck, what the hell am I debating this for?
if you say that ralli-team prepped car isn't a focused track car then fine.
i guess we should just ignore the simple fact that the admittedly 400ish kg lighter Noble is faster to 100.
surely the almighty benefits of AWD would've been able to handle it?
not to mention that by the time you've managed to get it cleanly off the line, the Noble drive would and a could've done two or three runs already.
so who's is the easier to drive car?

Again, it is 1,000 lbs (33%)!!! lighter, has 45 more hp, and still runs about the same 1/4 mile, the same 0-60, and is only 1.5 seconds faster to 100 And I wonder what the situation would be like at a stop light with no burnout and no traction. If the FQ400 is so "track focused" then WHY DOESN'T IT EVEN HAVE SUSPENSION UPGRADES? Get it cleanly of the line? Wtf are you talking about? It is not any harder to get off the line than any other car if you're not some noob.

[Nayr747]

Btw, here's a list of EVERYTHING done to the FQ400. Sure seems rally preped to me.

Garrett turbo
SS exhaust manifold/elbow
forged pistons/rods
injectors
fuel pump
steel head gasket
chipped? ecu
spark plugs
high flow cat
6 puck sprung clutch
HKS High Strength Head and Big End Bolts ?
6 pot brakes
aero mirrors, cf front lip spoiler, cf "sharks tooth" rear vortex generator
PIAA light and wiper upgrade
light alloy wheels
driver training course

http://www.lancer-evo.net/community/...pic.php?t=7143

Not ONE suspension upgrade. No upgraded anti-roll bars or strut tower bars, no coilover suspension, no camber adjustment, not even bushings.

[drunken monkey]

i'll keep this short this time.
are you saying that the FQ400 isn't a car made specifically for the track?
are you then also saying that the "regular" EVO's are not track/racing based cars?

why do you keep insisting that the noble is a more track based car than the Evo is?
why do you make the noble out to be some kind of special car that is almost made to measure?
again, small volume production.
they only have 4-5 different cars to their name, each one being a development of the previous.
if you use this logic to say that the Noble has specifically made body panels and what not then the lancer EVO VIII is also a car that uses specific body panesl as it is nothing like the orginal Lancer EVO.
anyway, do you know the procedure that happend when they actually made an FQ400 from the factory car to the final finished product rolling out of ralliart garages? it is far and away far more specialised and hand built than the Noble is any day of the week.

in anycase, this is confusing the matter.
i'll say it again because it is true: the FQ400 is not indicative of an Evo nor is it representative of all AWD cars out there.

[Nayr747]

Jesus man. I'm not going to continue this if we can't see things from a rational perspective. I think 99% of people would say (if they weren't in an argument) that the Evo FQ400 is very different than the Noble M400. I mean, an Evo and an STi are similar, a Mustang and a Camaro are too, a Honda Accord and a Toyota Camry too, maybe even a Ferrrari 360 and a Lambo Gallardo. But an Evo FQ400 and a Noble M400? Not only do they have great differences in cost, power, weight, but also manufacturing type, room, features, amenities, abilities (performance and otherwise), purpose, market. I mean can the Noble rally up a gravel mountain? Why not, if they're built for the same purpose because they're so similar?

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

are you saying that the FQ400 isn't a car made specifically for the track?
are you then also saying that the "regular" EVO's are not track/racing based cars?

Is a Honda Inegra Type R intended for the track? Is a Carrera GT, or a Radical, or an Arial Atom (I mean they share the same engine right?)? So they must be pretty similar right?

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

why do you keep insisting that the noble is a more track based car than the Evo is?

Because it is. Just like a Radical SR8 (the quickest Nurburgring time holder: 6:55) is more track based than a Murcielago. No one could say that the Murcielago is not track based, but not as much as the Radical.

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

if you use this logic to say that the Noble has specifically made body panels and what not then the lancer EVO VIII is also a car that uses specific body panesl as it is nothing like the orginal Lancer EVO.

Good point, but I think you know that's not what I was trying to get at.

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

anyway, do you know the procedure that happend when they actually made an FQ400 from the factory car to the final finished product rolling out of ralliart garages? it is far and away far more specialised and hand built than the Noble is any day of the week.

It is more specialised and hand built than the Noble? In what way EXACTLY? Yes, I know the process involved in putting such a large list of things on a car including such things as spark plugs and wipers. But yes all that stuff is pretty standard and not that hard. And again you could shrink that list to only 3-4 things and get the same result but I know they want to do it all factory-like and have big improtant names on everything (HKS).

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

i'll say it again because it is true: the FQ400 is not indicative of an Evo nor is it representative of all AWD cars out there.

Well being an Evo and having AWD (the same exact sytem as all Evos) would kind of make it representative. No, it's not representative of what to expect of a base Evo's engine, brakes, or clutch (or wipers, lol), but other than that yes it is since every other part on the car (95% or so) is exactly the same as a base model.

[Jimster]

Originally Posted by DinanM3_S2

And Jim, what happened to the Bimmer? A 911! the engine is in the wrong place

I sorta decided that the fuel bill is too much and the space that my POS fuel mising Civic took up'd be better occupied by something that I wanted.


Hence I had to get rid of the BM and get a diesel daily driver that I could still enjoy driving and something fun for the weekends

The engine is exactly where it should be, just few people have figured it out yet

[drunken monkey]

Car is registered by ralliart and taken to Flow Race Engines (the company who make the engines for the WRC car) and the engine is removed and stripped down and rebuilt. Owen Developments oversees the mapping of the engine and the work on the new Garret turbo and another separate firm called Motec adds a new ECU and the car is then first tested for figures before the final parts are added and the car.
for the most part, the tuning parts are are branded parts but this does not always mean off the shelf; the garret turbo for example is a unique item designed for FQ400.
i think having virtually bespoke parts and a Rally team (and their support) tune your car is quite specialised.

in a previous post i mentioned that Noble is a small volume car maker. This is the reason why the Noble is a more hand made car. It is also the same reason why lotus's are still mostly a hand made car and why TVR's are mostly hand made. Being hand made is not indicative of whether or not a car is built for a specific purpose or not. It is more a question of what means the company has to build their cars.

Anyway.
For some reason you seem to think that i am saying that the EVO and the Noble are the same type of car. That is not what I am saying. What I am saying, is that the Noble IS NOT a more track based car than the EVO is, especially seeing as every major as well as non major change to the EVO since day 1 was driven by the need to optimise the car for the WRC (or equivilant at the time)

and another anyway.... in an attempt to actually address the points of the original post.
how true is this of cars outside the american market?
i ask this because off the top of my head, i can think of at least one car that is (or at least was since they have opened a factory in France to deal with European demands) 100% made in japan but sold in the uk.

[Jimster]

I fail to see your question, there are many cars fully assembled in Japan and sold in the UK