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Old 07-29-2005, 02:41 AM   #1
Tobor642
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Swapping out a 3S-FE for a 5S-FE

Is anyone out here able to give solid info on swapping out a 88 Camry 3S-FE for a 95-later 5S-FE and anything I should be watching for? Stuff like bolt patterns on flywheels, intake/exhaust systems, etc.. I want to have it look as close as possible to original stock as possible to avoid the dreaded SMOG check hassles in California.. which means using the 3S-FE valve cover, etc.. if at all possible.

Any sugestions from those who have done similar swaps are welcome.
-R
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Old 07-29-2005, 12:00 PM   #2
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Cool

You'll be swapping ECU's, wiring harnesses, and the like. There is no reason to spend the money swapping a 3s-fe for a 5s-fe.

If you want more power, drop in a v6, and an E-153 M/T.

They would be smog legal in California, as long as you don't have the JDM versions, which have no provision for EGR. (The only differance between any JDM v6, and anyhting else is that the JDM v6's have no EGR.)





The basic intent of the California engine change laws is that when you do an engine swap, the new engine/transmission cannot pollute more than the original engine/transmission. This means the newly installed engine must be the same year (or newer) as the vehicle, and all emissions controls on the newly installed engine must be installed and functional.
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Old 08-01-2005, 02:33 AM   #3
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Re: Swapping out a 3S-FE for a 5S-FE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toysrme
You'll be swapping ECU's, wiring harnesses, and the like. There is no reason to spend the money swapping a 3s-fe for a 5s-fe.

If you want more power, drop in a v6, and an E-153 M/T.
I don't want to do the V6 in this.. There are issues doing simple maint. like spark plugs. leaks. etc.. and the V6 is a known to be not as reliable engine. I work as a mechanic in a predominately Subaru shop but have serviced a number of Toy V6 Camry's over the years and just don't want/like the half-ass tilted over engine and don't like working them. I am looking for a bit more power.. 20-25%.. and that is about what the difference is between the 5S/3S. It is a work car with 200K+ on it with a head gasket that is starting to leak oil at the edge of the block on an otherwise great running engine.. it gets me to work each day on a 150 mile round trip.. I want the mpg and reliability, comfort, etc... and a SIMPLE drop in that can be done in a days worth of work, not a week.

I am not racing this car, it is a worker.. I have a 10.02 sec 87 Buick GNX for going real fast and the wife has a turbo 2004 WRX.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toysrme
They would be smog legal in California, as long as you don't have the JDM versions, which have no provision for EGR. (The only differance between any JDM v6, and anyhting else is that the JDM v6's have no EGR.)

The basic intent of the California engine change laws is that when you do an engine swap, the new engine/transmission cannot pollute more than the original engine/transmission. This means the newly installed engine must be the same year (or newer) as the vehicle, and all emissions controls on the newly installed engine must be installed and functional.
I understand the CA engine swap laws. I am assuming based on what I have read so far to date that the EGR issue on the JDM engines can be gotten around by using the original 3S-FE engine intake and accessories that go with it. Correct me if I am wrong..

I just need to know what pitfalls I will run into swaping the larger engine such as bolt patterns on flywheels, intake/exhaust manifold swaps, etc.. Most of what I am reading these days says this should be fairly straight forward.

-R
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Old 08-01-2005, 09:47 AM   #4
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Cool

I'm not sure if the intake manifolds swap. They should, allmost everything else swaps in the S family. It would depend on the year 5s-fe being swapped. 95+ are OBD-II. You'd never get the ECU happy without the OBD-II emession controls.

Toyota swaps are easy. They only have four bolt patterns across everything, and you can mix-n-match any of the parts to work.

In your case, flexplate / flywheel patterns for any transferse setup (FWD, or AWD) are basically the same. The engine should fit without new mounts, the transmissions are the same (If you stick auto). Two M/T's you can swap. E-153 from a v6 Camry(MR2 linkage is on the wrong side), or the S54's from any old celica. S54 is the better option, lower gear ratios give the N/A i4's an easier time, and the E-153 is way overbuilt.





I still don't think this is a good idea. You're trading 115bhp for 130bhp.
3S-FE DOHC 4/22.3* 86-90 1998cc 115bhp@5200 124@4400lb-ft 3.39 3.39 9.3:1

VS

5S-FE DOHC 4/22.3* 90-94 2164cc 130bhp@5400 140@4400lb-ft

Understand, no intake system is going to give any power, and the only exhaust upgrade that will give much is a Bosal header.

To get 25% more than the stock 3s-fe with the 5s-fe you'll need a mix of Bosal header, Proted & polished heads, Piggyback, 3S-GE head swap (SMT, E-manage, Unichip - I'm an SMT guy, more features, less money) Take your pick of the four. Keep in mind, the GE head is going to kill the lower portion of the powerband, it's faster, but driveability always suffers.


That's a lot of money.
To get 25% more out of the stock 5s-fe, short of a full rebuild, forget it.

You might as well do the low $$$ 3s-gte exhaust manfiold, and turbo it. Put a new cat on, hide the turbo under an extended 3s-gte heat shield, use black piping, run flexable black charge piping back up where the normal silencer sits, in the airbox, and down the OEM rubber intake pipe.



The 3s-gte swap has been successfully hidden from CA emessions before.

May, or may not need to hook up a small injector for water injection at low rpm, but it's not a bad idea. I wrote something about using the older cold-start injectors. They work great with a washer pump on low boost setups.







My point, is you're going to have a hard time getting 25%.
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Old 08-01-2005, 04:46 PM   #5
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Re: Swapping out a 3S-FE for a 5S-FE

Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toysrme
I'm not sure if the intake manifolds swap. They should, allmost everything else swaps in the S family. It would depend on the year 5s-fe being swapped. 95+ are OBD-II. You'd never get the ECU happy without the OBD-II emession controls.
OK.. what about a 96-99 5S-FE with the 88 intake on it?? Or should I go the whole deal and move to the OBD-II ECU and do the rewiring job?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toysrme
Toyota swaps are easy. They only have four bolt patterns across everything, and you can mix-n-match any of the parts to work.

In your case, flexplate / flywheel patterns for any transferse setup (FWD, or AWD) are basically the same. The engine should fit without new mounts, the transmissions are the same (If you stick auto). Two M/T's you can swap. E-153 from a v6 Camry(MR2 linkage is on the wrong side), or the S54's from any old celica. S54 is the better option, lower gear ratios give the N/A i4's an easier time, and the E-153 is way overbuilt.
The car is an auto and will stay that way.

[quote=Toysrme]I still don't think this is a good idea. You're trading 115bhp for 130bhp.
3S-FE DOHC 4/22.3* 86-90 1998cc 115bhp@5200 124@4400lb-ft 3.39 3.39 9.3:1

VS

5S-FE DOHC 4/22.3* 90-94 2164cc 130bhp@5400 140@4400lb-ft

Understand, no intake system is going to give any power, and the only exhaust upgrade that will give much is a Bosal header.

To get 25% more than the stock 3s-fe with the 5s-fe you'll need a mix of Bosal header, Proted & polished heads, Piggyback, 3S-GE head swap (SMT, E-manage, Unichip - I'm an SMT guy, more features, less money) Take your pick of the four. Keep in mind, the GE head is going to kill the lower portion of the powerband, it's faster, but driveability always suffers.[/QOUTE]

If I was going for big power boosts I would go the 3S-GTE.. but I am really only interested in a swap to put the car on the road with a minimal amount of work.. The numbers I saw for the 96+ 5S-FE were around the 140HP area and that is 30 hp more than the current tired 3S-FE.. about 20%. .which is acceptable. The biggest interest is the improved bottom end torque as the car is a slug off the line until it spins up over 2K.. From there until shift at 6K it is plenty fine for what it's needs are..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toysrme
That's a lot of money.
To get 25% more out of the stock 5s-fe, short of a full rebuild, forget it.

You might as well do the low $$$ 3s-gte exhaust manfiold, and turbo it. Put a new cat on, hide the turbo under an extended 3s-gte heat shield, use black piping, run flexable black charge piping back up where the normal silencer sits, in the airbox, and down the OEM rubber intake pipe.
So what does a 3S-GTE go for these days in the San Jose to Sacramento CA area?? Anyone know?? I will do some calls and find out.. It really is more than I was interested in doing for a work car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toysrme
The 3s-gte swap has been successfully hidden from CA emessions before.
How do you hide a 3S-GTE w/turbo from the SMOG Monkies??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toysrme
May, or may not need to hook up a small injector for water injection at low rpm, but it's not a bad idea. I wrote something about using the older cold-start injectors. They work great with a washer pump on low boost setups.
Been there done that.. run a 50/50 mix meth/water on the Buick which runs boost at 22-26 PSI depending on how I setup the computer and it makes really stupid amounts of power. Uses a 3 gal. holding tank with a high pressure pump and a variable pressure regulator to get metered squirts from a pair of injectors stuck in both sides of the plenum. And to avoid the flow startup times as the engine gets up boost really fast from about 1500 rpm, a pair of switches turn on the pump at any point above 1500 RPM and 8-10 PSI of boost. Did a similar setup on my son's 740 Volvo Mustang killer. Works great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toysrme
My point, is you're going to have a hard time getting 25%.
I can live with less.. I really want to have a simple near stock swapout that gives me a little bit more in exchange for the effort put in to repair it. The head gasket replacement and cam belt/leaking front crank seal work is almost as much work as a swap so I am willing to swap it out IF it is not a major pain in the ass to do so.. It is not my race car.. just a work pig.. I bought the car new in 87, it is my 5th Toyota in 30 years and it has been absolutely great.. The car is clean in/out, has all new suspension, struts, tires,etc.. I like the way it drives/rides and if I can get another 100K miles on it with a swap, fine. I am waiting for the 2007 Supra if it ever makes it to this shore.

Thanks!
-R
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Old 08-01-2005, 06:17 PM   #6
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Cool

Most 3s-gte's go for $2000-$2500. But, most manuf's made 300bhp+ i4's back in the day.
If you use a 5s-fe you have to re-wire it, OBD-I or OBD-II.
If it's fully OBD-II compliant, you'll be dealing with some emessions error codes. Probably have to snip the light, or swap allll the emessions goodness in.
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Old 08-01-2005, 06:54 PM   #7
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Re: Swapping out a 3S-FE for a 5S-FE

Hi there..

[quote=Toysrme]Most 3s-gte's go for $2000-$2500. But, most manuf's made 300bhp+ i4's back in the day.[/QOUTE]

That was my guess... beyond what I am willing to do for THIS car..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toysrme
If you use a 5s-fe you have to re-wire it, OBD-I or OBD-II.
If it's fully OBD-II compliant, you'll be dealing with some emessions error codes. Probably have to snip the light, or swap allll the emessions goodness in.
Hmm.. I suspected that much.. I am wondering if I can just take the core longblock and put the intake and other crap on to make it look like the 2.0... and avoid the major conversion...

-R
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Old 08-19-2005, 09:11 PM   #8
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hello people,
i am new to this and i am sure that the answer is floating around somewhere in all the grandstanding but i have lost patience. never the less, i have a similar question to tobor642. i have retaken ownership of a 1990 camry dx 4cyl. apparently the oil light and the oil went out at the same time and i find myself considering an engine swap. i dont want a racer and i thought with the impresive mpg new toyota engines are getting... ...most importantly, what would be a no (read little as possible) hassle newer model swap that would grant me better fuel economy? i wont be doing the swap myself and i understand money will definitely be involved. any help would be appreciated. thank you in advance.
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