Hydrocharger...

[Morpheus XIII]

A few years ago I read somewhere about a device used for forced-induction, called a 'hydrocharger'. Similar to a turbocharger it yielded high boost, and much like a centrifugal supercharger it didn't have any initial lag. The mechanism retained the "cold-side" (turbine/impeller) of a regular turbo which compressed air into the intake manifold. However, there was no "iron-side" or "hot-side".

It utilized a belt for power, but the difference between this and a regular blower was that the belt turned a liquid-compressor (hydraulic motor), rather than turbine blades. This compressed liquid was then forced over its own unique turbine, which in turn, spun the attached "cold-side", thereby forcing air into the engine.

The end result was that much higher psi could be reached and the powerband remained smooth and linear. The liquid factor is what allowed high compression, while the belt-driven aspect ensured on-demand power.

Has anyone heard of further developments involving this contraption? A web-search resulted in only one page involving this design. It seems like a good idea...

[hermunn123]

i've never heard of that. so i also dont know of any improvements

[Jay!]

Wait, so what powers the hydraulic motor?

[Moppie]

Sounds intresting, useing the crank to drive a hyrdolic pump that then drove a compressor, I would think the etra pump in the middle would make it less efficant. Have you got the link?

[Morpheus XIII]

Wait, so what powers the hydraulic motor?

--Silver S2000

A belt off the crankshaft (like a supercharger) turns the hydraulic motor.

I would think the etra pump in the middle would make it less efficant.

--Moppie

That's exactly what I was thinking. I remember that the final boost was significantly higher than that of most superchargers, but slightly lower than that of most turbochargers. Even though results showed the increased boost, the entire device does seem to have a lot of weak areas where power can leak out--of course, inefficiency is a characterisic of ALL new concepts, and further R&D could eventually solve the problem.

I know that some would say turbochargers are still better than any other type of forced induction, simply because there is nearly no limit to the amount of boost obtainable. However, high boost turbos produce astounding numbers only on paper; lag contributes to unsuability on any track with turns. The hydrocharger adds the friendliness of a supercharger's smooth powerband. Unless developers find a better way to lose early turbo-lag, I will be keeping my eyes peeled for this unit.

[texan]

Yep, Garret is the one working on that technology. I think it's possible they will wait for the 42 volt electrical systems to start finding their way into cars before proceeding with this further, that way the hydrolic pump can potentially be driven electrically (just a theory). I've had my eyes open for this technology for awhile too, so far it's never gotten beyond the drawing board to my knowledge.

[Moppie]

Originally posted by morpheusxiii


--Moppie
However, high boost turbos produce astounding numbers only on paper; lag contributes to unsuability on any track with turns. The hydrocharger adds the friendliness of a supercharger's smooth powerband. Unless developers find a better way to lose early turbo-lag, I will be keeping my eyes peeled for this unit.

Have you ever seen a WRC rally car go past and lift the throttle going into a turn. They have virtualy elminated Turbo Lag once the Turbo is spooled up, they keep it spooled up. They use a variety of methods from opening the exhasut side of the turbo to Inlet Vacum to installing fuel injectors and spark plugs in the exhaust to create a vacum. (that LOUD popping sound!)
Some of these features are making thier way into poduction cars, the New EVO VII has an enviromental friendly version of one of the anti lag systems used on the rally cars, its not as effective, but its does help hold boost.

[Morpheus XIII]

...once the Turbo is spooled up...

--Moppie

...is the KEY phrase. Turbochargers were naturally born with this flaw--so much to a degree that most race car engineers turn to normally aspirated power when seeking absolute perfection. This ideology is reflected in the design of several well known examples throughout the past, such as the McLaren F1. When it really gets down to it, turbos are a pain. I still cherish our next generation method of "replacing displacement", since turbocharged applications are generally versatile. However, a broad linear powerband still remains a prerequisite for the cream of the crop.

[Moppie]

Yeah iv read most of what Texan has written on Turbos, as well reading other material, SO I know exactly what you mean. And Iv driven enough Turboed cars to have first hand experiance of it.
I think its a side affect that will always be there, it can be minimised, but never removed.
If could find the link to the HydroCharger it would be good though.

[Morpheus XIII]

Oh, there was no real informational site concerning the hydrocharger; the one I was referring to was a page from a Q&A forum (for Miatas, if I remember correctly) asking about if anyone knew what a hydrocharger was. Follow-up postings had similar data and thoughts stated in this AF thread above.

If I find further information, I will post the links.

Speaking of higher voltage automobiles, I think I remember hearing somewhere that DaimlerChrysler will be one of the first to break into that frontier sometime in the near future... Just imagine all the benefits it could provide.

[F=ma]

This hydrocharger sound like a novel idea...

I think that you could far make up for the amount of mechanical loss in the intermediate step taken to drive the water pump off the crank...

My logic being that the #1 problem with Superchargers is the lack of boost control. Nevermind the parasitic loss, if you can get maximum boost and hold it from 2000 rpm to redline then you've got the best forced induction system in the world. (After all this is the goal of all turbo's, superchargers, or any form of forced induction, to have the same powerband as an N/A engine, but magnified proportionally).

So normal crankdriven compressors must be geared down so that they reach maximum boost at redline, which means that at anything LESS than redline, they're not at full boost... which means there's potential not being tapped.

The water pump idea is excellent since you can, like a turbo, have a bypass which would allow water to flow past (ie bypass) the turbine powering the compressor. And if THIS is possible, you can gear the pump so that it reaches max boost at 2000 rpm (just off idle) and any extra water that WOULD cause overboost will simply flow through the bypass.

Walla, you have your boost controlled supercharger (AKA Hydrocharger).

Very good idea, I definitely give it thumbs up.

I'd like to see more of this...

[Morpheus XIII]

Nice name.

The thought of FULL boost at 2000rpm--doesn't it make you drool? If this became possible, naturally aspirated powerplants could become obsolete...

[Moppie]

The MK1 S/C MR2 makes full boost at about 3,000RPM. Not far off your 2,000RPM mark. But it isnt a lot of boost, about 7psi I think.
Still its a very Torquey motor.

[Morpheus XIII]

Yeah, not a whole lot of boost, but DAMN that car is fun to drive. It's like the only thing the mk1 MR2 was lacking was fulfilled by the blower. Too bad they didn't make enough of them.

Then there was the HKS 'twincharged' MR2 from some years back... VERY interesting setup...

[tanjwarrior]

What about the E-Ram?

An electric turbo-boost turbine that gives a power boost above 3000 RPM? It's lag-time is supposed to be 100ms. But it isn't for constant use. It provides 1psi or 1.7 psi boost when full-throttle is called for.
Provides a small boost of power when full-time demand is needed. A neat idea for racing.