1972 lemans

[dieselsmoke74]

what is a 1972 lemans worth, sitting since 2002, original 350 2 barrel now has edelbrock intake and edelbrock 4 barrel, 61,000 original miles, needs a little body work 2 door hard top floors are good, trunk is soft in a few small spots,automatic tranny

[spytearbite]

It's worth nothing without that stock intake. More Chevy intakes flowed a littel better than aftermarket. Especially around that era.

[MrPbody]

If this car is Canadian-built, it MIGHT be a Chevy. If not, it's a 350 Pontiac, and is completely unlike a Chevy.

Based on the description, if it is equipped with A/C and all the parts are still there, power streering, power disc brakes (you gotta look at the front, as many still had drums), bucket seats/console, it's worth a bit. Maybe $2,500. The Edelbrock intake doesn't improve the value, but doesn't hurt it much either. The carb unbolts easy enough...(:- The majority of 350 LeMans' were 2-bbls.

Does it say "LeMans Sport" anywhere on it?

There is little collector value as a LeMans. There is, however, tremendous "muscle car" potential. It's the same basic car as GTO of that era. ALL the "goodies" that made GTO feared and repsected bolt right in, literally. That includes the 400 Pontiac V8. Today, we're doing some pretty scary stuff with 400 Ponchos. And don't fall for the "You gotta use a Chevy to make it run" line. GTO didn't get it's reputation from losing, and it did NOT have a Chevy engine... EVER.

What did you have in mind? A restoration or a hot rod? LeMans is better for the latter. All the sheet metal parts and trim are readily available from Ames Performance or Performance Years (Pontiac resto houses, won't pawn off Chevy stuff because it "fits").

Jim

[spytearbite]

MrPobdy, I think I make reference to a one Smokey Yunick that if you know a little about his work with the boss called, Knudsen (known for the term Boss 302?) is how Smokey and that is another story, but now Knudsen is head of Pontiac and here say Smokey said the Pontiac was same block as the 350 Chevy is why do you think they won in 1961 in a 1960 Pontiac is Pontiac was pissed that Smokey won when they were promoting the newer 1961 is check your history.
I believe Cole was the chief designer of the 265 is Smokey finalize what is now known as the Chevy 350 with all the manifold building and spark plug head reposition because Smoke saw it would gas puddle where they had the spark plug initially.
So, If you can back that up with Knudsen, Cole, Smokey deep in both Chevy and Pontiac R&D at that time, and all that Marvin Panz is beat the Pants out of the competition. I would like to hear how valuable that engine is now.

Say, you cannot interchange so much as what that engine is designed after is more or less, say a minor technical glitch.

opcorn:

[MrPbody]

I'm not quite sure what you're after here, but I can assure you, Pontiac history is something I know PLENTY about.

You throw some names around, but you don't know how they all "fit" together.

Semon "Bunkie" Knudsen took over as President of Pontiac Division in 1956. He was assigned the task of saving the division from obscurity. He was the son of retired GM CEO Semon Knudsen (late '30s through the war years). The chief engineer of power plants in Pontiac Division at the time was Malcom McKellar, and another notable name on the staff was John Z. DeLorean (turn toward Pontiac, Michigan and bow...). He (Mac) was one of the guys "left over" from the original design team that developed the Pontiac V8, meant initially to go into production in the '54 models. Due to production and vendor "issues", it wasn't to be ready until '55. In late '53, Ed Cole and Zora Arkus Duntov, chief engineers on the new Chevy V8 project, went to Gm corporate and asked if they could use some of the design work already complete on the Pontiac, to expidite the developement of the Chevy. Remember, now, there were no Chevy V8s yet, so what we now call "small block" back then was simply "the" Chevy V8.

NOTE: During a press conference, when introducing the 283-horse 283 for use in Corvette, Zora Arkus Duntov was speaking about the famous Duntov 30-30 cam he had developed. When asked what "level" the cam was, he said "It's about 3/4 of a full race cam". In those days there weren't hundreds of cams available for every engine family like today. Thus coining the phrase "3/4 cam"...

NOTE1: Malcom McKellar is creditied with developing the first "computer optimized" camshaft for a high performance engine. The famous "Ram Air IV" cam (041) used for Pontiacs, '68-'70 in their GTOs and Firebirds equipped with "Ram Air II" and "Ram Air IV" engines. He (Mac) had designed the also famous "McKellar No. 10" solid lifter grind for the SD engines. Funny, but while the lift numbers are higher for the 041, duration and overlap are nearly identical. Maybe he was a pretty good engineer!

The ONLY feature that "fit" into the concept of the Chevy were the stamped rocker arms Pontiac had developed. Chevy changed them from a "pressure feed" through the studs (which later proved to be problematic in the Pontiac) to feeding oil through the pushrods.

Anyway, in '57, Knudsen wanted something "special" for Pontiac to point to and grow on. Bonneville was the result. 600 cars made. ALL had bucket seats (first "full size" car ever with them) and fuel injection. The 347 V8 made plenty of torque, but they wanted more high-end horsepower. The system they used was very similar to "Ram Jet", which was also first introduced in '57, on the "283 Horse 283". The main difference between them was the size of the throttle body. The Chevy would flow 650 CFM. Pontiac felt that to be inadequate for their larger engine, so the Pontiac version would go 750.

'59 was the introduction of the "wide track" Pontiac,. This was the first "new" design since Bunkie took over. They (Pontiac) dumped the X-frame (POS) and went back to the '57 full parimeter frame, as did Olds. Buick and Chevy soldiered on with the poor frame. '59 also saw the introduction of the famous 389 AND "TriPower" (Chevy boys refer to it as "3 dueces", Dodge boys call it "6-pack" and Ford lovers see it as a 6-bbl.) as a factory option. The first Super Duty Pontiac engines came out then, as well called 425A "Trophy" engines. from '57 through '59, Pontiac did very well in organized racing.

In 1960, John Z. DeLorean became chief engineer. He allowed Mac to "play" in the lab and see what he could dream up. He (John Z.) also hired Harland Sharpe and Smokey Yunik to help develope a NASCAR-specific monster engine. 421SD was the result. Smokey Yunik was the man that came up with the idea of reducing bearing speed by making the mains 3" in diameter (down from 3.25") so the engine could "live" for 500 miles at 6,500 RPM. It was for the Pontiac V8 that Harland Sharpe "invented" the roller rocker arm we all know and love today... In 1962, Catalinas driven by Fireball Roberts and Joe Weatherly won 31 of 36 Grand National (what we call "Cup" today) races.

NOTE: Smokey Yunik made himself famous for building virtually ALL kinds of engines. In the mid '60s, he built a 327 that actually FINISHED the 500 miles at Indy. To this day, it is the ONLY production small block that has ever accomplished that feat. Smokey was one of those guys I saw as a "hero" in my youth. It made me sad the day I heard he had passed away. Bruce Crower is another of my "idols" as a child. He's still alive...

From 1955 through the end of production in late 1978, the Pontiac V8 changed very little aside from displacement. The connecting rod size stayed the same for ALL of them. Deck height, bore spacing, main webs, again, did not change. Main bearing diameter DID change. 287 through 455 CID, all the same basic block. There were two cross-breeds at the end, 265 and 301, but they weren't related to Chevy engines, either. Basically, they were "short deck" versions of the original design.

The Pontiac shares zero parameters with small block Chevy OR big block Chevy. Deck height is 10.240", a full .040" taller than the TALL DECK big block. Nearly 2" taller than small block. Bore spacing is 1/2 wider than small block and about 1/4" narrower than big block.

Based on your comments, you assume the Chevy and Pontiac V8s are made from the same basic design. This is not the case. Don't feel too bad, you're not alone. Due to all the corporate changes over the years, current offerings ARE the same. In olden times, each GM division had it's own identity AND their own engine design. A 350 Olds shares no architecture with a 350 Pontiac, which shares none with 350 Chevy, which shares none with 350 Buick. Yes, it CAN be confusing... But I'm an "old fart" and learned all this when it was happening. The big changes began in the mid '70s when fuel economy and emmissions became more important than performance.

Anything else you would like to add?

Jim

[spytearbite]

You know I loved the read,

MrPbody

. I think my last sentence might bring up your push rod oiling was Smoke wanted very little oil up on the top end because the vapor splash was sorta live-able in the 500 mile fuse of things.

So, as I see

Bunkie

having Smoke as his main R&D man since the

Daytona

dirt days, we are now up to 1961. I would think if Smoke is leading all those convertibles and wide bodies they were, but did not Smoke give that Chevy warm over a little retool to this block?

You do know where the 4-Bolt Main came from? Need I say. Did that not share about every NASCAR going to this day is may we start with Smoke on the east coast and his other brainchild like tuning skills lived in the west coast but died in a plane crash is not really important unless you need the name as I type from memory.

But are we about to discount the spider runner manifolds that Smoke had

Bunkie

mold and return to Smoke and did not Smoke drop to the floor first time at Chevy R&D where Cole had no

dyno

let alone a flow bench gathering dust about was some roots type GMC or Mack diesel blower for a flow bench and who do you think came up with a flow bench? Need I say he did not invent it but they sure follow the base flow of 28lbs or twice the flow is 14.7psi.

You had Smoke literally air spin a cutaway 350 and watch the crankcase do all that nasty with burning coal chunks to watch the smoke as his

Smoketron

needs 400HP worth of electric motor to run. Run a

Nascar

engine at his prime ear whatever that HP was at the time is at max racing rpm, watch the air and all that is physics in the basic. Did he learn a lot?

Smoke was in secret with Chevy Corvette is another story with the Cole/

Bunkie

as per Smoke had that 282 fuel injector for the corvette. Was that 1958 for the first year '59

Fuelie

Vette

? Like it was so obvious but what was a pretty good design at GM just was they needed a troubleshooter like Smokey. Smokey did everything he could trying to get that thing to run. Took him two months to find out if you close the hood in the body cavity, there was not enough air to pull that much CFM into the

fuelie

is that you needed to keep the hood off to make it run. So, even the Chevy engineers could not figure how simple that was in the physics.

Yeah, so that was a nice read you took time to write. I like that ear about the Pontiac is Smokey had this term, "Seat Gap" and he saw that in, Fireball. He was so upset about some Bill France deal that he gave, Fireball and some crew chief the Pontiac and all the parts and said get out of the shop is Smoke was off to another project or rich/broke on that sorta racing cycle. Smoke threw Fireball out of

his

car because Smokey knew that car would go much faster. So that was one key to Smoke knowing his cars and what that

dyno

says and what Smoke knew about picking out racers leaning forward all scared now and Fireball admitted to Smoke is they stayed friends even though Smoke was the show is he needed to win for

Bunkie

was the bottom line of it all.

How about I add one more item that grafted over to the Pontiac mill was also the spark plugs used. See, Smoke figured out a lot about spark plugs as you well know about those

Hepolite

plugs were better off you holding the plug wire and sticking your finger in the hole was the better plug to use.

Yeah, so there is Smoke who invented the deep-reach spark plug as we know it today. It sure was in that Pontiac and retro from Chevy was back when Champion gave Smoke a penny for every deep reach sold from 1956 to 2001 was about for it for that little invention was his rights to that plug.
I think he got screwed.

[dieselsmoke74]

im not sure why u guys are talking about this nonsense all i wanted to know is if its worth anything.....

[spytearbite]

We have a soft heart for Pontiac's... So, it's worth what the next person offers you on the final O.B.O. is we are trying to give it some value. We see that year and it brings a tear to our fender well.

[MrPbody]

DS74,

It's "my job" as an advisor on this site to make sure facts are kept straight... When I see people mixing Pontiac and Chevy information, it raises a "red flag".

One of the most common misconceptions of today's "hot rodder" is that ALL GM engines are similar or from the same "roots". Simply not the case.

I tried to answer your question at the start. I had to make sure you didn't get confused by the erroneous information regarding the Chevy engine's being similar to the Pontiac. I'm obviously having communication problems with spytearbyte...

PAX

Jim

[spytearbite]

DS74,

I hold 16 password websites and this is the 17th website that has placed me in the banned for days Cat Cage/Cat-Gear-Goreee, is still a password INN holding pattern, yes or no?

I think I have cleared any (((Posing))) as to a reference as to my banishment was of course: Once the brake dust settled, someone was schooled about a rubber part being a noise suppressor? I was banned for describing that part as a seal for the grease as in, the "GENERIC PART" someone should have known dead cold as ICE is digital fuel injection should that person also walk the code book and explain that in simple terms where those sensors are heading. Which I know well enough to be dangerous as dangerous as rubber seal, 4-Stroke which it stands! I will have you know, just so you do not forget who should have placed theirs in the dunce cap corner is game me on that silly part number.

I will also have the staff aware that I am selective on my threads. Only because I feel confident that anyone that would like to step in and help with the diagnostics is more or less we are about to repair it, think it out, or come to some agreement we are heading in the right track; or I do not track any other post is I am not well versed in that field.

Eye Specialize.

What I know is I better have my mouth cocked and aimed specific, or I will not enter a post. I believe what I have proven is that you did happen to be schooled at some new level of information about that PonySmack Dab Smells Smokey to me. Would you not agree you are removing some history from Mr. Yunick? Buy 4-Bolts Main? If you do not recognize how that car won their races is that car was a basic turn-key car, handed to Fireball, would you agree, or disagree on that historical fact.

I bring fact, not fiction to my posts and I can back up every word I say. So, if you are wondering if I have you covered with a small part of what historical fact I place on the table and represent that in cold hard facts: Was your Pontiac design refined is do you agree about a Turn-Key that Smoking Key Fob of a Pony Tack his history?

That must be up on the wall of facts is: Have I lied one word yet, MrPeeBody? I am sorta a race in your face kind of guy is, do you own a 6-Point seat belt buy chance?

Hey, you gotta laugh about it or else.....

[Jinkz05]

I personally just bought a 1972 Lemans. It has more of a pointy front end with air vents in the hood. Not exactly the look I like but the car way way too cheap to pass on. Runs and drives alright just needs alot or work. My question is simply this, how hard is it to change the front clip to a different style? Say maybe the look of the 71' or 70'? I have tried posting pics of my vehicle and pics of the front end I particularly like but only one pic will load. If anyone can help me that would be great. I can email the pics if someone wouldn't mind taking a look at them. Thank you.

[GTOHunter]

Jinkz05....I answered Your other Post about Your LeMans,I believe You have a Sports LeMans with the GTO/Endura front end "Option" which is very desirable in my opinion!

A 1971-72 LeMans or T-37 front clip will interchange with Your Car......but I would try to fix or find parts to fix Your Endura/GTO front clip,any parts will be GTO specific.


Dieselsmoke...... The value of the older Pontiacs are higher and higher with each year they get older and depending on what condition they are in,what options they have and how bad You want it.If its in as good of a condition as You state it could be worth several thousands of dollars.

Thanks for the added In depth info on Pontiacs History MrPbody and Spytearbite!

[Jinkz05]

It's not in awesome condition but quite well for the price and very restorable, worth putting the money into it 100%