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Old 06-14-2010, 04:05 PM   #1
FLAWIND
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Talking 1997 windstar mysterious brown sludge in cooling system

Hello,

I greatfully stumbled upon this amazing forum about 2 weeks ago and began reading from the very first thread all the way to the end and back and forth and all in between. This forum is really addictive and like no other.

I unfourtanly have been blessed with the gift of a 1997 Windstar 3.8 GL. 101,000miles and seems to have been pretty well taken care of until i opened up the radiator to do a flush and refill the other day not expecting what was lurking under the rad cap.

When I recieved the vehicle I knew that there was going to be alot of routine maintence things that I was going to have to look over, replace, yada yada yada seeing as how the car did not come with any maint records and was sitting right at 99,000. Oil and filter change, air filter change, new tires all around, new pads, rotors, and calipers in the front, new drums and shoes in the rear, completly bleed and filled with fresh fluid, checked for any codes:1 for VSS(I replaced in about 6 hours), p1516,p1537,p1538(IMRC), found vacuum leaks and fixed those/codes, checked all sensors and connections and cleaned, seen that the PS fluid needs to be flushed and replaced with new(I'll be doing that very soon), trany fluid is a little on the brown side(will drop the pan, replace the filter and hopefully be able to get atleast an 85% exchange for new fluid,very soon), new belt, the flue injectors looked good, the plugs good and gapped correctly(yes the are new, motorcraft double platinum), wires were recently replaced, suspension looks good (monroe sensatrack all around), undercarriage in exceleent shape, no rust anywhere on the van, put some marvel mystery oil(upper cylinder lube) in gas about every 2-3 weeks, and everything else looks and works well. I was hoping to be able to get the top intake manifold off soon to clean the egr and ports and replace those 6 little o rings, take off valve covers, inspect and replace those gaskets. No leaks or blown gaskets that I could see any sign of until the other night while I was working. I'll get to that in a min.

I was very suprised with my new FORD, the good condition it was in and how much easier it is to service than all the MOPAR's that I have always owned. I deliver newspapers overnight 7 days a week 365year here in florida with my wife and we do take care of our vehicles but they can only take so much for so long.

I got everything together to do the cooling flush and when I opened the Rad and overflow resi there was a crap load of brown sludge. I found this issue about 2 weeks ago and flushed the system once with a 50/50% vinegar solution and then three times with no additives. Filled her back up completly with 60/40%mix and have been checking reg. The problem has not "cleared" up any. All times after flushing I would fill back up and the next day right back to looking like the oil spill in the gulf.

On another note, as I was driving around throwing papers, I very faintly smelled coolant and stopped to check it out. No extra overflow in the overflow resi, no sign of any hoses leaking, a few small bubbles coming from aroung the timing cover! Ahh and now it all begins to make some sense to me as to why I have what looks to be the oil spill right off the coast floating aroun in my engine, rad and O.F resi! But the thing that puzzles me is that these signs are the opposite of a blown/damaged head or lower manifold gasket where the coolant is getting into the oil and not the other way around? So yes I am stumped and not sure of the next step I should take to solve both the problem of the slightly leaking gasket, and where all this sludge is coming from and how to get rid of it? I've read about the Taurus having water pump issues where the fins inside of pump were deteriorated and disolved, creating the recurring sludge problem in the cooling system. But I personaly think that would be going out on a very tiny limb there.


I am at a loss right now as to what to do? I can do the repairs myself (hopefully and successfully). It runs very well and with no signs of any issues or coolant and or oil loss or gain? Help Me Please

Here are the ugly pictures...


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Old 06-14-2010, 04:25 PM   #2
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Re: 1997 windstar mysterious brown sludge in cooling system

You can be sure that you are also getting coolant into the oil ... to make sure, grab an oil sample and send it off to Blackstone labs. Don't expect to "see" the coolant in the oil ... that would require a huge coolant-in-oil quantity. A little coolant in oil does a lot of damage.

Oil in coolant is mostly just a mess, not doing a lot of damage.

There is at least one crossover leak ... possibly in the head gasket or the lower intake gasket. I vote for the lower intake gasket if the engine seems to run well.

The leak passes oil into coolant when the engine runs and the oil pressure is high ... coolant pressure is usually around 16 psi ... oil pressure can be 60 psi or higher. Oil wins this tug of war.

When the hot engine is shut down, the leak changes direction. The oil pressure is at zero ... the coolant stays at 16 psi, or less, until the coolant cools. The coolant wins this battle and goes into the crankcase.
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Old 06-15-2010, 03:28 PM   #3
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Re: 1997 windstar mysterious brown sludge in cooling system

Thanks Alot 12Ounce,
Now that all makes sense. Time to figure out a plan of attack!
Would you suggest doing another complete flush and trying something like "Bars Heavy Duty Stop Leak" or "Thermagasket"? If so what product would you recomend as it would only need to be a temporary fix (2-4) weeks untill I can tear it apart and fix?
From your thoughts and previous reading in the Windstar forum it does sound almost 100% like the lower intake/crossover line. So I am ordering a kit from Blackstone Labs http://www.blackstone-labs.com to have my oil tested for any coolant, should have the results back in time to have the money to order all the parts from Ford.
What are your suggestions as far as the Timing Chain Cover leakage? I keep checking it and have not seen any more leakage or bubbles coming from around it. Should I replace that too (just gasket or cover and gasket)? Or could I use something like Bars? From what I've read, this is a common problem with the 3.8L 98's and older and a pain to get at while engine still in van.
Also, while I now have an excuse to take apart the top of the engine, I can get all my routine cleaning done! Would you suggest that while I am already going to be putting in the labor to get at the lower intake manifold gaskets and replacing that crossover coolant line should I be prepared to remove the lower intake and replace the Head Gaskets? and if so, how much more time and effort would that involve? Really not looking forward to doing that job! What about the water pump? Anything else I should be looking at replacing?
I would like to have a great running and reliable Windstar for personal (carring around 4 kids+) and work (delivering newspapers 365days a yr) that will last me at least another 100,000miles but I also don't want to keep throwing my time and money into it just to encounter another big problem that needs to be addressed (knock on lots of wood very quietly) like the tranny or engines bottom end.
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Old 06-15-2010, 11:10 PM   #4
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Re: 1997 windstar mysterious brown sludge in cooling system

My suggestion is not going to make much sense perhaps:

Do the lower intake gasket replacement ... include the crossover pipe. Buttoned everything up and see if the problem seems to clear up with a few flushings. (In other words: ignor the front cover gasket and water pump ... and pray!!)

The front cover and water pump replacement are terrible jobs ... much more difficult than the intake manifold. If you end up having to do the front cover later ... you will not have wasted that much effort having done the intake manifold.

My opinion.

Keep us advised on that oil sample.
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Old 06-16-2010, 12:03 PM   #5
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Re: 1997 windstar mysterious brown sludge in cooling system

All,

Wasn't there a recall for this at some pt by Ford ? If so I'd get them to do the work for free!

AJ
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Old 06-16-2010, 12:33 PM   #6
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Re: 1997 windstar mysterious brown sludge in cooling system

nope, don't see any recall for this...

http://www.automallusa.net/1997/ford...r/recalls.html

if he's gonna tackle the front cover/water pump, might as well go ahead and get the timing belt job... unless that was done already
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Old 06-16-2010, 03:28 PM   #7
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Re: 1997 windstar mysterious brown sludge in cooling system

timing belt?
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Old 06-16-2010, 06:41 PM   #8
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Re: 1997 windstar mysterious brown sludge in cooling system

my bad... this has a timing chain... please disregard my belt comment :P

my guess, maybe someone else has used one of those bars leaks, either in tablet form or pre-mixed in a small plastic bottle

i've cracked one bottle just to be curious a long time ago & that's what it look like inside that bottle
,,, but on the 2nd pic, that's not likely... that's waaay to brown

look inside this bottle and you'll see what i mean:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2LAKGgmY1k

skip to 8:30 to see the fluid...
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Old 06-20-2010, 08:51 PM   #9
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Re: 1997 windstar mysterious brown sludge in cooling system

I had a VERY slight seapage from the timing cover gasket (also called front cover gasket) which I solved using the Bars Stop Leak......the original peleted stuff.
This helped somewhat with the lower intake manifold gasket leak that later developed......but did NOT come close to solving the problem.
The signature line in this post contains a link to a folder of pictures that show the various projects that I did with my '96 windstar, which will be super close to your '97.
It includes the lower intake manifold gasket replacement job.
The new gaskets are improved, so if you do the job correctly, it should not ever need to be repeated.

I also have pictures that show, step by step, how to drop the tranny pan, change the filter, and do a cooler line fluid exchange.

The front cover gasket has also been improved, but......as mentioned it is a MAJOR job to change....and I would try the stop leak for that repair.

Toward the end of my pictures, there are pictures that show the replacement of the brake hoses that go from the steel lines to the calipers.
I was never happy with the brake performance of my windstar until I replaced those hoses.
If you can do a brake job, the hose replacement will be very easy for you.....and the hoses are not expensive at all.
I got mine from Rockauto.
My brake hoses looked great from the outside......but replacing them made a MAJOR improvement in braking performance, well worth doing.
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Links to my pictures, intended as an aid, not a replacement for, a good repair manual.
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/4157486...781661/detail/
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Old 06-25-2010, 01:29 AM   #10
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Re: 1997 windstar mysterious brown sludge in cooling system

From your intention to keep the car and the capability of doing things (as I read between the lines) in your place I would disassamble the engine (in the car) to heads off. I did this the first time and must say, if you have some knowledge it looks like big work, but is astonishing simple, as most things "klick" into place.

Why? I thought I had only minor problems (loosing cooling, overheating (fan prob) occasional code cyl.1 and so on) and on taking down the heads did see nothing much than one slightly deformed headgasketring - to make a long story short: my waterpump was fine, the seal however leaking, some ports on the lower intake half closed with coal and a lot of minor issues, and now all problems seem to be gone. Main problem developing was the headgasket, found by chance - allthough nothing really could be seen on that when taking out. The only indication were the traces in the cylinder !!.

Moreover - if the cylinders are not cracked (seldom, my shop here said in nearly all cases the problem is with the head) the head should be the only place for a crossover coolant/oil (if not a broken line from the transmission in the cooler - not heard of that). Have the head checked and, if needed, planed.
You should have some tools like torquewrenches, you should check for head-repair kits and so on, as you can easily spend doubly the money on shopping for spares (Felpro full set 190, head only 120!).
OK, what I want to say: if you want to keep the car and have done so much already, if you have the ability then dont cure the symtoms but the cause. Open the hood, remove the panel with the wiper and you have free access to it all.
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Old 06-09-2012, 11:21 AM   #11
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Re: 1997 windstar mysterious brown sludge in cooling system

FLAWIND: I would like to hear about the Blackstone results if you have them.

I have a 1998 Windstar 3.8L with oil in the coolant. No apparent coolant in oil. I am trying to sort out how to approach the issue so I am following this thread. Thanks for your continued input.
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Old 07-16-2012, 08:53 PM   #12
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Re: 1997 windstar mysterious brown sludge in cooling system

AH HA! One I can kinda ans. I have had the dreaded brown gunk in my cooling system for 3 to 4 years! At first I thought it was oil, and was not going to spend $$$$$ on an old vehicle with 150K miles.

I figured it was oil in the water, not water in the oil, so what the heck, I will run it till it blows. If water in oil different thinking. If 3 year old $20,000 car different thinking.

I have changed my mind, I now believe it is transmission fluid. I am guessing there is a leak in the transmission cooler putting fluid in the coolant. I am not a mechanic it;s a guess!

A simple fix would be to cut the present transmission lines and add an axillary cooler. Or just say screw it and see how long it will last. I now have 195,000 miles on the windstar.

If you are a car fanatic and really need to know, send a sample to a lab and they will tell you if it is oil or tranny fluid or maybe blinker fluid. I have to add a little tranny fluid now and then so I am guessing it is tranny fluid? Or maybe I have a tranny leak somewhere else?.

I am not a mechanic, I really don't care if I am right or wrong, I will keep running this way till it is no longer feasible. It's been about 40,000 mi so far.

This post is not meant to be advice and the info is worth what you are paying for it. It is only to tell you what a lazy non car nut did and what happened so far. JIm
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