Is anyone running SCCA GT2?

[Panoz60]

Greetings,
I purchased a GTRA (Serial #10) that I am upconverting to GTS Specs. I have downloaded the .pdf detailing the rules for SCCA GT2 compliance. The problem is some of those rules are bizarre, IMO. For instance.....using the original Panoz wiring harness, etc. Really? And the headers are $1200 from PAD. Wow! I can build my own for a fraction of that. I ran a Mustang in SCCA/AS for years and I knew how to get a hold of the advisory committee for clarification and/or suggested revisions, and I have no idea how to do that for a Panoz GTS running GT2 in SCCA.

Any help would be appreciated.
PS- I own a ceramic and powder coating shop I started when I retired from the sheriff's office, so I'm basically coating everything on the car (lol)

Mark W.

[PanozDuke]

Can't help much on the GTS specs, but I believe we have several members of this forum who race in that series. There have been a few accomodations granted to the GTS to allow it to be more competive with the Porsche cup cars. The consensus seems to be that the GTS is mid pack under current rules. PAD has not aggressively developed and sought approval for needed improvements. The Porsche's seem to be doing that. Some, not by any means all, of the GTS drivers have elected to compete in other series such as NASA where the primary rules are weight to horse power.

I hope some of the GTS guys will chime in on all sides of the options.

I have a spread sheet registry of a number of GTRA, GTWC and GTS members of this forum that I can send you by email. I also have a summary document of the tribal wisdom posted on this forum or available from other internet sites regarding these cars. Has general info, specs, repair, upgrades, part numbers and sources. Be glad to send that along as well. You can contact me at mduke8 at gmail.com

I'd like to add info on your car to the registry.

Mike

[boothkc]

I've run a GTS in San Francisco SCCA GT2 for last 6 yrs and now run a '08 Porsche Cup in GT2. I also just sold my GTRA so I'm pretty familiar with the situation.

Basically, I doubt anyone will really care if you run a GTRA in GT2 pretending to be a GTS. In 6 yrs of regional racing, (Champion 3x), I have never anyone really scruitinize the car or know much about them. Periodically, they will check ALL GT2 cars for window retention clips or fuel sample ports or something safety like that. I've never had them "complain" that my engine wasn't sealed or look at anything "spec". We ran "pretty" legal (<450HP), but did change the engine crank, pistons, rods at some point to stop it from blowing motors. If you had a multi Panoz competitve field and someone really protested you then I guess you could have issues. We have 5 or 6 local Panoz's and essentially a "gentlemen's agreement" that nobody will exceed 450 hp or do anything ridiculous etc. We are all happy to race and keep the cars going.

So, for regional events I'd suspect they would grant you an easy tech for safety compliance only. You must have a DOM roll cage, current belts, blah blah... then you are good to go. SCCA really doesn't scruitinize these cars much unless you are clearly way out there or somebody doesn't like you. They know lots about spec Miatas and not much about Panoz. Some GTRAs had EBW (ERB?) or some other kind of welded roll cage that wont pass SCCA tech at all. If you clean the paint off of part of the cage and it looks like a flat piece of metal was rolled into a tube and seam welded along the length of the tube you have the "bad" cage. The good DOM cage is an extruded tube so there are no welds except at the segment ends.

It is highly unlikely (no disrespect) that you will win in a GTRA unless the field is pretty light. There are usually only a few GT2 cars and now there is a push to get car counts up etc. So expect a "tollerant" SCCA. Unless you win no one will ever look twice at the car.

It is a different story for National SCCA events and expect a higher level of knowledge and some "push back". For the most part a GTRA with carburation and Penske shocks will "fool" most of them. They will never be able to correctly differentiate the headers or wires etc. Could get you on Konis or lack of diff cooler, but else the cars are too similar. The GTS does have a SCCA ID plate, but I've never had anyone even look at that.

If I were you, I'd get a local SCCA tech guy to do an annual tech on your car as GT2 and sign up and run it. They are listed in the local SCCA site and will come by your house/shop for a very modest fee and tech the car. I suspect you will be fine. If you end up with issues then just run the weekend as SP (unlimited tube frame class) and have fun. Same run group and any Panoz (any tube frame car) can run SP.

The SCCA tech process is really for safety not run group compliance. Many cars can be slightly changed to run in other groups and they keep the same tech.

Locally, we petitioned for a separate GTP (GT-Panoz) group to get 2 run groups per weekend. This group was open to ALL Panoz cars (GTRA, GTWC, GTS etc) that were < 450 hp. It is a SCCA regional class and if you really get into it talk to your region about adding it. We have several mixed breed Panoz GT* that run both groups without issues.

When you sign up for a race just list it as a 1999 (or other model year) Panoz or Panoz GTS.... I'd skip the GTRA part on registration.

You are welcome to email me if you have any specific questions etc. Good luck and have fun.

Kevin
GTS (for sale), 997 Porsche Cup

boothkc@yahoo.com

[Panoz60]

Thanks for the information. I kinda figured as much. BTW I have no plans to EVER run the car at the SCCA Run-Offs. I never plan to tear my engine down in a tech tent so i can claim a $10 bowling trophy. I may want to compete in SARRC championships however. The central Florida officials and tech guys also look mainly for safety violations, not detailed rule compliance.

Unless I have REALLY missed something, the GTRA and GTS chassis are identical, correct? The difference is in the dampeners, wheel size, and the drive-train? I have already upgraded to the Penske's. I completed all the recommended chassis stiffening modifications. While the car is currently powered by a 260HP 302, I have a 351 I purchased for this car that is currently in the machine shop. I plan to take the car out with the 302 to become familiar with the dynamics of the vehicle, and install the 351 after a few weekends.

Any and all help is appreciated.

[Cobra4B]

The GTS cars also have upgraded thicker rear trailing arms. We've added them to our car.

[boothkc]

Unless I have REALLY missed something, the GTRA and GTS [COLOR=blue !important][COLOR=blue !important]chassis[/color][/color] are identical, correct? The difference is in the dampeners, wheel size, and the drive-train?

More or less. The GTRAs are all a little different. Ours had PFS brake rotors and Brembo calipers that were different from the GTS (Brembo calipers and rotors). No brake bias setting in our GTRA. Also didn't have integral diff pump and cooler. If you have added the chasis reinforcements and Penskes you have the important stuff. Think about a diff cooler add on if you run sessions over 30'.

I also converted my GTRA to GTS guages so it was more or less identical looking to my GTS. 18" wheels and slicks are huge. I heard Hankook will/was making 17" slicks so maybe there is some hope for better 17" tires.

Tremec 3550 is a weak link as HP increases so with a 400+hp 351 W I'd be thinking TKO600 and hydraulic clutch too. Your 302 headers will fit fine but are not as good as the GTS headers.

Kevin

[Panoz60]

Thanks for all the informative replies.

A little more info- I am upgrading to a 351 built closely to the spec line. (the only thing that will be different is I am going with a link-bar style lifter vs. the stock lifters with the "spider", because I am using a 69 block AND the motor is .030 over to clean up the bores)

I do have the 3550 but I am confused about it vs. TKO 500's and 600's. I've been told that the difference is really in the ratios, and the otherwise the gear sizes, widths are the same. I actually called TCC (who supposedly built the tranny for Panoz???) and the tech dude told me as long as I do not do clutch dumps and otherwise abuse the tranny, it should be fine. Obviously real world experience may differ. I ran a basically stock T5 WC rated at 325 torque in my AS Mustang for three seasons with no issues. That motor made 408 hp (flywheel) and 360 tqft- and I ran mainly at Sebring and Daytona. Thoughts?

I would imagine that a 302 powered GTRA will get spanked in SCCA GT2, but how should a GTS "Clone" measure up to competition, in you opinion? GT2 Competition in SCCA CFR is well represented. Lots of RX7's, Z's and BWM's and such. They were on average 7-10 seconds a lap faster than my AS Mustang (2:31's) @ Sebring, and I figured a GTS (Clone) should be at least 10 seconds faster than my old car.

I have no intention of running SCCA Nationals. My opinion is it's more expensive per weekend, and I have no intention of going to the R/O's to have a chance at a podium, only to tear my motor down in the tech shed to collect my $10.00 plastic trophy. Just my opinion. Anyway...

[panozracing]

TKO 500/600 has a harder set of components. The 500/600 handles a hundred more lb/ft of torque. You can read up on tremec's website.

http://tremec.com/performance/t3550.html

http://www.tremec.com/performance/tko.html

I have raced Florida PBOC/NASA/NARRA/V8STOCKCAR/SCCA/FARA for over a decade and there is not a lot of competition in the true GT2 class except for the 996/997's which dont run in SCCA. The 996/997's are too fast when driven well and everything else the Panoz when driven well will beat. This is why my brother and I modified our cars to NASA ST-1 (which we are now not allowed to run forced into STR-1 and I am back to not a lot of competition to race against). Our ST-1 spec is very close to 996's and the 997's are still a bit too much. There has been some surge in the corvettes and vipers around here but they are pretty fast.

I am constantly chasing the competition and the big events. The best events in Florida are PBOC winterfest, SCCA Daytona (I think May is the event with V8StockCAR), PBOC Daytona event (watch registration), and then from there you have to watch registration of all the clubs and see who is signing up and whats going on.

[boothkc]

Brian is 100% right.

In GT2, there tends to be a mixed bag of cars. Some are really fast and lighter than our 3100# tanks. For perspective, at Thunderhill CA, I ran 1:55s in a 450hp stock GTS, 996 Cup cars will do 1:53s and my 997 Cup will run 1:51s (Miata very well driven will do 2:08s). In SCCA, there aren't too many of us running the Cup cars as it's about $3-4000/hr to run one ($2-3000/hr for 996). 997 Cups have to run a restrictor plate in GT2 which helps a bit. Without the restrictor we can do 1:49-50s at T-Hill. A well driven GTS will still keep up and potentially beat a less well driven Cup car. When the GTS were running in the Nationals they would place mid pack (10-14th of 20+ cars), but now that field is dominated by the Cups.

The TKO 500 and 600 are much stronger than the 3550 and will last longer. A new unit from Liberty Gears is under $3k and worth putting on the list. I ran one of their face plated "full tilt" boxes for a little while, but it was very hard on the drive line (broken drive shaft and differential) but worth about 1 second. Was a blast to drive with instant shifts but short lived in my hands. We went back to new TKO 600s that lasted about as long as a well made race engine (about 80-100h).

By far, the biggest gains will be in the use of slicks. This requires 18" wheels (CCWs) and is a big investment, but without them you will be down 3-5 sec/lap. We ran the Hoosier slicks and at least 1 set/wknd to keep up. Michellins are perhaps slightly better, but more expensive ($2-2500/set).

I think you can still have great fun in GT2 with a "GTS/RA", but you will have to be on your game in a perfectly sorted car with a good tire budget. Brake pads make a big difference too.... PFS. Showing up for every race and getting 3rd or better will clean up around here.

Aluminum drive shaft is available from Coleman and saves some weight. Tiny race battery helps and keep the fuel low... you get the idea.

This speed and reliability is expensive, but nothing compared to the 997 Cup cost which is easily 4-6x for about 2-3% faster laps. Just to make you fell better... I just rebuilt the engine and sequential gear box in my 997 Cup = $49k w/o installation labor!! My cost for a race weekend with support is $8-12k depending on venue and tires.

Cheers,
Kevin
2000 GTS (for sale)
08-997 Cup (should be for sale!)

[NZGTRA17]

[quote=boothkc;6996018]Brian is 100% right. This speed and reliability is expensive, but nothing compared to the 997 Cup cost which is easily 4-6x for about 2-3% faster laps. Just to make you fell better... I just rebuilt the engine and sequential gear box in my 997 Cup = $49k w/o installation labor!! My cost for a race weekend with support is $8-12k depending on venue and tires.]

Kevin, really appreciate your transparency around Porsche running costs. Had been wondering what it has been costing our competitors to run these cars.

Certainly confirms the awesome bang for buck offered by the Panoz!!

A couple of other Porsche models that we have been running against of late over here are 964 twin turbo's, 996 turbo's and 997 GT3RSR's. We can run neck and neck with the 996 turbo's when both on DOT's and we are on top of our game. The GT3RSR was mind blowing and spanked us on every inch of the track.......(thats putting it mildly).

Kel.

[boothkc]

Kel,
the RSR is an amazing $500,000 race car. This is what runs with pro teams at Le Mans etc. Looks a lot like a Cup car, but many dramatic differences in the engine (more HP), gear box, and brakes as well as aero package. Used these sell "instantly" here for $275k when they come up. Tear down of gear box every race keeps them off most amateur owners lists.

Don't feel bad about getting spanked by one of them!

Kevin

[NZGTRA17]

Originally Posted by boothkc

Kel,
the RSR is an amazing $500,000 race car. This is what runs with pro teams at Le Mans etc. Looks a lot like a Cup car, but many dramatic differences in the engine (more HP), gear box, and brakes as well as aero package. Used these sell "instantly" here for $275k when they come up. Tear down of gear box every race keeps them off most amateur owners lists.

Don't feel bad about getting spanked by one of them!

Kevin

Didnt help that I was one of the only cars in the race on DOT tyres Kevin. Like they always say........never bring a knife to a gunfight!!

Shame of it was the RSR was leading the 12 hour race by over 20 laps with 8 minutes to go, started leaking oil and caught fire. Expensive way to not win and to have done the most laps to boot...... But man was it fast.

Kel.