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Old 06-04-2003, 02:33 PM   #16
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If Peugeot and Alfa didn't sell a lot of cars, that was because they didn't have a good after sale service, their network was poor, their cars were not automatics (rarely) and quite expensive, etc.
But today, Peugeot and Alfa would succeed in the USA as their range is as wild (even more) than VW for example.
Not official for the return of Peugeot but many rumours quite serious. More, the future PSA models are made at the US specifications. Official for Alfa.... maybe in 2008

For the Dual airbags, almost all cars sold in Europe have it as standard (and as the Mégane category, often 6 airbags in standard).

"US tests, the Espace wouldn't fare as well" : not sure of that, and EuroNcap are actually more realistic than US crash tests.

A question Hudson : you seem to live in the USA ("I would love to have TVRs and SEATs and Lancias and various other vehicles offered in the US") but I'm maybe wrong as long as you have a Citroën Xantia Hdi.... so where do you live ?!!
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Old 06-04-2003, 03:28 PM   #17
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Peugeot and Alfa Romeo's dealership network was poor. Even when Alfa Romeo was sold through Chrysler dealers, their sales were low. Besides any dealership problems, they were typically ranked at the bottom of all quality surveys and were not low priced.

Peugeot was quite egotistical about marketing in the US. The 505 and 504 were rugged cars but hardly worth the premium they sold for here.

Alfa Romeo 164 (a car I really liked) had spotty quality as well. The first car I drove was great. A year later, I drove another and it was so cheaply built that doors didn't sound solid and controls were weak.

Volkswagen's lineup is quite conservative. While their cars attract premium pricing in the US, they still sell for less than the prices Alfa Romeo and Peugeot asked in the early 1990s for their products. These two companies have to overcome a bad reputation they deservedly earned in the US in order to fetch the prices Fiat and PSA would expect. And Peugeot's probably going to need an SUV before they can sell vehicles in the US at any significant volume...unless they expect to compete at VW's prices...which I doubt.

No matter how realistic anyone thinks the EuroNCAP tests are, they are not the standard used in the US. The US tests are different and comparisons of similar vehicles on both sides of the Atlantic show that a vehicle that passes one test does not automatically do well on the other.

As with the airbags, many cars do have dual airbags but it is not standard across the board in Europe. Also, Eurobags are different than American airbags. These little changes necessary for the US market may look like market protectionism to the outsider, but it's more for protecting the companies selling here since a flawed product will bring a lawsuit faster than an airbag can inflate. If the borders were opened to every automotive product without some minimum level of emissions and safety regulation, the lawyers would be busy and a number of small manufacturers would most likely close their doors...whether or not they had an official presence in the US.

I don't have a Citroën and I do live in the US. Before you start believing that I don't know European cars, it is part of my job to know cars in the New and Old Country.
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Old 06-05-2003, 03:52 AM   #18
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Well this conversation has taken quite a turn



Anyway- Peugeot still stand a small chance of success in the United States- the 2O6 and 3O7 are too small to be considered at a family car level- and the 3O7 isn't "cool" enough to be bought by the Civic driving rice-boy crowd- seeing as it looks like a minivan.


This leaves the upcoming 4O7 and 6O7. The 6O7 is a luxury car minus the badge- the chance of it coming in at under US$40,000 is minimal- meaning that it'd struggle against BMW- just look at the poor old VW Passat W8 - and in good old fashioned economies of scale fashion- the 4O7 would have trouble competing against well established Japanese, US and German brands. Also noteworthy is that Peugeot's viechle quality is good- but lagging below the Japanese- but above most American makers


The Alfa Romeo has a MUCH better chance at success this time around- PROVIDED that they can get a proper after-sales, parts, service and dealer network going. The 147 is a very cool looking hatch and if they can price it against the Civic Si it'll be a surefire success, the 158- which'll probably be based around the Cadillac CTS- would have to go against the 3-series and G35- and in order to do this the engines will need more horses- as the Yanks sure love an engine with many horses, but if it can be a more stylish alternative then there is success right there. The new GTV/Spider also are important- sports cars go down well in California and Florida after all Of course the Kamal SUV is the key to Alfa Romeos success in the USA and I don't need to explain why.............
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Old 06-05-2003, 09:43 AM   #19
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Also noteworthy is that Peugeot's viechle quality is good- but lagging below the Japanese- but above most American makers...
Although I think you underestimate the quality of American cars, a new company lagging behind the Japanese in quality will not help Peugeot break into this market. Peugeot has a bad quality reputation in the US, due mostly to their second-class dealership network, which will be difficult to overcome. In order to compete, they will have to be within striking distance of Japanese quality...and that is where the American cars are.

Additionally, "minus the badge" is not going to help Peugeot become a luxury player in the US. TONS of marketing money must be invested in the US market to prime the public for Peugeot as a luxury car maker. The same problem happens with Alfa Romeo, although it's not placed in as much of an image deficit as the French brand.
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Old 06-05-2003, 06:21 PM   #20
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You're very tough with Peugeot !
For teh range first :

- The 107 has no chances of course.... offff.. the Smart will be sold in NY and SF after all !!
- The 206 looks very cool and has good engines (RC/GTi, etc.) and the CC which is not very expensive (arround 20 K€ /24k$) and is a good alternative to the SLK.... in much less expensive !
- The 307 : the SW has got chances, why not after all, and the CC too fort he same reasons as teh 206 CC (even more as it's bigger). And fort he sedan, the 308 (replacing the 307) will be more classical (less high) and more sporty (in the Alfa 147 spirit).
- The 406 : look at the Coupé it would make big sales I think, at least the product is almost based upon the American market. The sedan is nice and sporty and the SW big and nice. Same thing for the future 407.
- The 607 : big car as the Americans like it. But it's missing a V8... though the future 607 could have one. And look at VW, the W8 is very recent and they sold a lot before.
- The 807 : an excellent competitor to the Odyssey, Trans Sport and Town&Country.

But it's missing an SUV, a good image and a dealership network.

As the Peugeots uqality is concerned, it's now very good, for example, the most reliable car in France in 2002 was the Xantia, the C Class in second and the 406 at the third place.
No problems of reliability today on Puegeots, only Renaults have problems because of a "too much" of electronics new systems (starting cards, dci, etc.) and an over production in their factories.
The buit quality is good, better than on most American cars (it doesn't mean that American cars are not well built), and even if it's not an Audi.... it's also not (any more !) the price !

Same thing for Alfa Romeo, 147, 156 and 166 have their chances. They have a + compared with Pug : the future SUV Kamal, but also a - : they don't have a van. For the GTV and the Spider we could compare it with the 406 Coupé and 307 CC (more GT, less sporty, I agree, but more recent).

Though, for the shortcomings of Pug in the late 80's, I totally agree. No V6 on the 405, too much expensive, built quality not better than American cars, old models (505 & 504). The 605 could have been launched.. but it was very expensive too not as the 607 which is (at least in Europe) in a good range of prices, as the rest of the Peugeot range.

Also, Peugeot will have to invest a lot if they want to re-enter the US market because of their lack of image (or worse, their bad image). But if they do well from this point of view, the Peugeots have at least as much chances as VW if they also succeed in controlling the prices.

Look : Daewoo, Kia, etc. entered the American market, so why not Peugeot and Alfa which are real makes (sorry for the Corean makers but their cars are not so exciting, cheap, that's true.).
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Old 06-05-2003, 11:05 PM   #21
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Yes, the 107 has no chance in the US. The 206 wouldn't sell in the US, even if they were to bring in the 206CC...since it's more expensive than a Mazda Miata and much smaller than the similarly priced (and very popular) Chrysler Sebring Convertible. The 307/308 would be in the Ford Focus class at the price of a Mercedes-Benz C-Class coupe. The 406/407 is the smallest vehicle Peugeot that could be sold in the US, yet it would compete with the Acura TL...but the Pug is smaller and the TL is quite a high quality product (higher than the C-Class). Again, the 607's problem is that it's FWD in a RWD market. Once you get above $30k range, buyers lean more toward RWD in the US...and 240hp is becoming the minimum power for a family sedan (under $30k)....the 607 barely puts out 210hp. As for the 807, it's smaller than an American minivan...you could almost put an 807 inside of a Chrysler Town & Country, Honda Odyssey, or Ford Windstar. And the American minivans are priced less than the 807 would be.

Peugeot's quality has come a long way in the past 15 years...but it doesn't matter. What matters is PERCEIEVED quality...and Peugeot lacks that in the US. You can't compare Peugeot to Kia or Daewoo. Kia sells on price and a 10 year warranty. Daewoo sold on price. Peugeot's not planning on being a bargain brand...there's no money in it for any Western European manufacturer.

Volkswagen's advantage is that they've been available in the US since 1949. Volkswagen also had one of the best selling cars of the 1960s in the US. Volkswagen also produces about half of their US-market vehicles in Mexico (big cost advantage over the EU).

And, yes....Peugeot needs an SUV for the US.

Alfa Romeo has similar obsticles to overcome but atleast they have a rabid following....small, but rabid.
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Old 06-05-2003, 11:15 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hudson


Although I think you underestimate the quality of American cars, a new company lagging behind the Japanese in quality will not help Peugeot break into this market. Peugeot has a bad quality reputation in the US, due mostly to their second-class dealership network, which will be difficult to overcome. In order to compete, they will have to be within striking distance of Japanese quality...and that is where the American cars are.

Additionally, "minus the badge" is not going to help Peugeot become a luxury player in the US. TONS of marketing money must be invested in the US market to prime the public for Peugeot as a luxury car maker. The same problem happens with Alfa Romeo, although it's not placed in as much of an image deficit as the French brand.
The build quality of the American cars I have been in has not impressed me at all- the Ford Mustang is the worst culprit of this- I saw a Loose airbag trim and door trim on a brand new Cobra when I was checking one out. The Chevrolet Malibu is another culprit- I had one as a rental car when I last visited the states (The milage was about 10,000 miles- it was reasonably new to the fleet) the dash rattled and the rubbing strip on the drivers door had come loose- not a good look. The Dodge Viper that I drove- well lets just say the cheap dash almost melted in the sun, I had to give a mate a ride home after the engine in his Taurus shut down and then not much later the auto 'box packed up- the list goes on......But my impression of American build quality has not been a good one at all.

Alfa Romeo's Italian badge and handome looks are probably going to give it an advantage in the executive market- but a lot of marketing is going to be needed to shake off the old impressions of the badge. If Skoda can do it- then I'm sure Alfa Romeo can.
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Old 06-06-2003, 09:17 AM   #23
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For the price of Peugeot, if it can be the same as in Europe I don't see the problem ! A 206 CC cost from 17 to 21 000 €.... a Sebring 36 000 € (I don't know the prices in the USA, but i guesse that the gap would still be big).
The 807 is as big inside as a Voyager !!!! My father is looking for replacing its Evasion and wants a big boot... and the Voyager is not bigger inside than the C8/807/Ulysse/Phédra. But it's bigger outside and that's not a quality at least in the European cities.
But two very important thing : first, I'm still considering that almost all French cars (in the same range, except maybe the C3) are better built than American ones (compare a Sebring with a 406, a Néon with a Mégane, a 607 with a Concorde, etc.).
And secondly, the French cars have a big big advantage versus all cars in the world (which has compensed for many people their shortcomings before the 90's), their excellent comfort/handling compromise. Except the last BMW (with many electronical helps), rare are the cars which can compete from this point of view. Italians have generally a good handling but the comfort is not their best quality ! German cars have either too hard suspensions, or too floopy suspensions... not good for the comfort and sometimes for the handling and driving precision.

Again, concerning the prices, at least in Europe (so why not in the USA ? if they can controll their operating costs, importating cars made in South America for example), French cars are (not for a long time) competitive.

Jim : exactly, Skoda is going to succeed in changing its image. So Peugeot and Alfa Romeo can easily do it also, averall because their cars are not bad (a Skoda of the 80's is not an Alfa or a Pug of the 80's !!).

The 607 has "only" a V6 210hp in its higher version, but let's compare with a Town Car for example which has indeed bigger engines... The performances won't be much better I thing because the Lincoln is very heavy, its engine is not designed for a low consumption and the best performances, etc. So why having 320hp if they do the same work as 210hp ?

Same thing as Jim for the quality of American cars, I have driven a Camaro, it handles nothing and it's made with disposable plastic. The Voyager is not better (well the new one is quite well buit I must conceed). I won't speak about a Neon. The Ford Focus handles well but inside it's not very well built.

Though I'm not saying that American cars are not good, I would be wrong. They have an huge personnality and are very various. You can get extreme cars. But I don't think that Americans can critisize French cars as long as they have big qualities also, not the same maybe
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Old 06-06-2003, 09:55 AM   #24
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Your sample of American products can hardly be termed broad. The Mustang (same with the Camaro) is not one of the highest quality products on the market...and that's not its selling point. I don't think Peugeot or Alfa Romeo plan on offering a V8-powered 260-300hp rear-wheel drive coupe for $26k in the US.

A 10,000 mile Malibu is hardly a relatively new fleet vehicle...and rental cars cannot give you a sample of how actual customer cars work because not many people treat rentals like their own. Since I test cars as part of my job, I use the actual mileage of the vehicle an multiply it by 10 to get a reasonable approximation of how the vehicle would fare in the real world. And the Viper? C'mon...that's never been about quality...it's always been about going fast, having style, and being basic.

Comparing reviving Skoda to reviving Alfa Romeo doesn't work either. American are not Europeans....for good or bad. Americans need more time and more incentive to forgive past bad products. Hyundai revived their sales in the US with low prices and a 10-year warranty. As I said before, Alfa Romeo (as with Peugeot) is not going to compete on price in the US...and I don't think Fiat could afford a 10-year warranty on Alfas.

Comparing the 206CC to the Sebring Convertible, you have to turn the tables a bit. If the Pug costs €17-21k and the Chrysler sells for €36k in Europe, in the US it would be $25k for the 206CC which is where the Chrysler sells in the US.

Unless you're comparing the 807 to the standard Voyager, they aren't anywhere near in size. The minivan market in the US can best be shown in the long-wheelbase GRAND Voyager which can hold a 4ftx8ft sheet of plywood in the back with the tailgate close and all seats removed (a standard test of minivans in the US). The 807 cannot do this.

Peugeot would not position the 607 at the Town Car buyer. NOBODY wants to target the Town Car buyer, not even Lincoln. The Town Car buyer is OLD, car companies want youth. If Peugeot wants to re-enter the US market competitively, they'll have to target Lexus or Acura. Even Nissan's Maxima has a 3.5L 260hp V6 as its ONLY powerplant. Heck, the more mundane Nissan Altima has 240hp as does the Honda Accord. A Town Car isn't about power...it's about size and soft ride...two things that Peugeot can't (or doesn't want to) compete with. And what's the torque on that gas-powered Pug as compared to the V8 Lincoln?

You keep comparing items on these vehicles that are not the main focus of them. Minivans are all about safety and interior space...and more and more about power (V6 is a must...200+hp is becoming the norm). If you want to bring Peugeot and Alfa Romeo to the US, you need to focus on Lexus and Acura as a starting point. Using the quality of a Chevrolet Malibu rental car (an $18,000 car) or a Ford Taurus (a $20,000 car) or a Mustang (a $26,000, 260hp V8-powered coupe) as a benchmark isn't going to work. The PSA and Fiat have no plans to enter these markets in the US...and couldn't compete if they did.
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Old 06-06-2003, 10:09 AM   #25
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I won't continue this uproar because my English touch its limits (for long). But I'd only tell this : Alfa Romeo is going to re enter the American market, that's official, for sure before 2010.
For Peugeot and Citroën, that's less sure but you can notive that all their new cars are considering the americans norms (security, pollution) so they could be (technically) sold in the USA.

For the price, of course, it has to be hardly structured.

I took the example of the Town car, I could have taken the 300M.
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Old 06-06-2003, 11:33 PM   #26
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...I took the example of the Town car, I could have taken the 300M.
Yes, you could have. Perhaps you should have. The 300M is a 250hp sedan priced at around $30k in the US. In addition to it having more interior space than the 607, it has more power (with only a 3.5L engine) and would be thousands less expensive. They sell more 300Ms in the US than Peugeot ever sold in one year in this country.
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Old 06-07-2003, 12:01 AM   #27
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yes- given the choice I would have a Chrysler 300M before a Peugeot- but I didn't- although Mitsubishi of Australia are looking at bringing the 300M and converting it to RHD and sell them in Australia and New Zealand- too little too late for me though.


Chrysler/Dodge is the only US brand that I give any interest- and even then only some of them. Just one question- why do Chrysler sell the LHS AND the 300M- the cars are pretty much priced the same, have the same engines- so why bother with two of them???? No wonder thier coffers are in trouble
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Old 06-07-2003, 07:59 AM   #28
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More interior space ?.... I don't care, the 607 is big enough inside ! and if it's not enough, the Vel Satis is very big inside, more than your 300M.
"250hp for only 3.5l" .... why "only" ?!!! 71hp/l, that's not impressive.

"They sell more 300Ms in the US than Peugeot ever sold in one year in this country" : interesting !we've already said that Peugeot didn't sell many cars in the USA because of many shortcomings. But I think they won't do the same things when they'll come back, and they'll I'm sure of it, rendez-vous in 2009 !

The 300M is less expensive than the 607... The Euro is very expensive today, and the Dollar cheap so the price is differnt aloso for that.
More, the 607 is not more expensive in Europe, the 300M 2.7 204hp costs here 38 000 €, same price for the 607 V6 210hp with a better engine, a better built quality, better performances and a better comfort/handling compromise. I don't know why you would choose the Chrysler... at least in Europe, and THERE is the uproar : a 607 is a far much better choice in Europe, and the 300M would be a better choice in the USA.
Because :
- The 607 would be more expensive in the US (taxes, transport, etc.)
- The 607 has qualities which does'nt interest Americans : handling mainly.
But the 300M doesn't sell in Europe because :
- The handling is very bad, or at least you have to drive very smooth, unpossible in Europe
- It's too big and not agile (problems on Europeans roads and towns)
- The consumption is too high (the 607 is mainly sold in HDI (diesel)
- It doesn't sell well on the second hand market

However, I don't know why you're trying to kill Peugeot...
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Old 06-08-2003, 04:08 AM   #29
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Quote:
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More interior space ?.... I don't care, the 607 is big enough inside ! and if it's not enough, the Vel Satis is very big inside, more than your 300M.
"250hp for only 3.5l" .... why "only" ?!!! 71hp/l, that's not impressive.

"They sell more 300Ms in the US than Peugeot ever sold in one year in this country" : interesting !we've already said that Peugeot didn't sell many cars in the USA because of many shortcomings. But I think they won't do the same things when they'll come back, and they'll I'm sure of it, rendez-vous in 2009 !

The 300M is less expensive than the 607... The Euro is very expensive today, and the Dollar cheap so the price is differnt aloso for that.
More, the 607 is not more expensive in Europe, the 300M 2.7 204hp costs here 38 000 €, same price for the 607 V6 210hp with a better engine, a better built quality, better performances and a better comfort/handling compromise. I don't know why you would choose the Chrysler... at least in Europe, and THERE is the uproar : a 607 is a far much better choice in Europe, and the 300M would be a better choice in the USA.
Because :
- The 607 would be more expensive in the US (taxes, transport, etc.)
- The 607 has qualities which does'nt interest Americans : handling mainly.
But the 300M doesn't sell in Europe because :
- The handling is very bad, or at least you have to drive very smooth, unpossible in Europe
- It's too big and not agile (problems on Europeans roads and towns)
- The consumption is too high (the 607 is mainly sold in HDI (diesel)
- It doesn't sell well on the second hand market

However, I don't know why you're trying to kill Peugeot...

I wouldn't call the handling of a 300M bad- definitely not up to the 6O7's standards- but better than cars like the Lincoln Continental (So bad they killed it) or Cadillac Seville (So bad that they should kill it)

Depreciation is a problem for both the 300M and 6O7- the Germans lose value much slower than both the afore mentioned cars- in the European market the 300M does lose out though in depriciation here in Italy the 6O7 V6 costs the same as the 300M 3.5 so it is a fair comparision


So while the 6O7 is a superior car to the 300M the 300M is more suited to American needs- and it's be a waste of time for most European brands to bother with the US
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Old 06-08-2003, 11:31 PM   #30
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...but better than cars like the Lincoln Continental (So bad they killed it) or Cadillac Seville (So bad that they should kill it)
You folks really don't understand the reason there are different cars in the world. While the Seville doesn't handle all that bad (not as good as, say, the 300M, but still not bad), it's not supposed to be a Ferrari. The Continental was designed to ride smoothly, not run in a slolom. Production of the Continental did not end because of its handling...because the Continental handled very much the way its buyers wanted it to. The Continental was replaced by the LS.

The Chrysler 300M is 153mm longer than the 607...that doesn't sound like a huge difference to me. It's shorter than a 7-Series and yet they're European!

The LHS (no longer in production) and the 300M were sold side by side because they catered to two different markets. The LHS was a soft luxury sedan while the 300M was a shorter (by 187mm) sports sedan. The 300M actually handles fairly well for a front-drive large sedan.

And lastly, the 300M isn't being considered for export to Australia chiefly because it ends production in just a few months.

I don't want Peugeot to die. I'm all for competition...but Peugeot will have a very tough time re-entering the US market. I think I've made it clear the obstacles that PSA had to overcome before making Peugeot a success in the US. It will be very tough.
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