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Old 11-30-2001, 12:18 PM   #16
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You would use compressed natural gas. It is stored at several thousand psi. They need to be in circular containers. They have made some advancements, and they now integrate many smaller containers into one big one, allowing it to be flat. Tanks are still expensive, though (about $1000 at least) The gas is then injected into the cylinder or intake manifold just like regular gas. Then it is burned. There are essentially no bad emissions, just some CO2 and water. It is not perfect (CO2 is greenhouse gas), but it is quite possibly the best alternative.
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Old 11-30-2001, 12:25 PM   #17
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If you produce it at the gas station, you have had to ship the oil from either Texas, Northern Alberta, or the Middle East. THen it needs to be refined to rid it of impurities. This costs money/time (and creates pollution).
Then, you need to refine it at the station. The by-product is carbon, which is not the greatest thing in the world.

With my way, water is turned into hydrogen by flowing water. Then the hydrogen-powered trucks drive it to the station (they will need to weigh more so they dont float up, but they will get super-economy from the light weight). Also, this could be done at any dam, so it would be convenient by being relatively local (1000km instead of 2000km). Then everyone could be happy
If you produce hydrogen from petroleum, all of your points are valid. But they'll already have gasoline or methanol at the GAS STATION, assuming that they sell gasoline/methanol as well as hydrogen. I have problems with the extraction of hydrogen from gasoline/methanol because I don't know what's left. This is the method that most major automakers are going with, though.

If you produce hydrogen from water, you do not have any of these problems (or they are greatly reduced). Extracting hydrogen from water (tap water, well water, nearby creek/river/lake) should provide the cleanest method. If a "gas station" performs the extraction on premises, they would save money compared to trucking the hydrogen from "refinery" to sales outlet.
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Old 11-30-2001, 02:30 PM   #18
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already have gasoline or methanol at the GAS STATION
Oh, I see. Refining it there now seems like a good idea as well. But eventually, they may stop selling gas at all stations. Then you would ship in hydrogen.

The best part is, we may get to keep the Internal combustion engine and all the emotion that goes with it, it will just be running on hydrogen.
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Old 12-04-2001, 10:56 PM   #19
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Or...you could use electrolysis and create pure hydrogen RIGHT AT THE STATION.

Also, why use hydrogen in an ICE? Why not find a better method altogether...like a fuel cell?
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Old 12-05-2001, 04:57 PM   #20
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I'm goint to have to call this one of the best conversations ever here. SaturnTangerine is going to have so much data!
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Old 12-06-2001, 09:30 AM   #21
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I'm goint to have to call this one of the best conversations ever here. SaturnTangerine is going to have so much data!
I'm absolutely impressed! Now if only my speech was allowed to be longer than 7 minutes!!! *lol*
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Old 12-06-2001, 09:35 AM   #22
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Saturn, are you in Toastmasters? I recently gave a speech about this topic to my Toastmaster's group. I spoke about the proton exchange membrane, and perhaps you'd like to include it in your speech. Type proton exchange membrane into a search engine and you'll get tons of information.
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Old 12-06-2001, 11:22 AM   #23
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Saturn, are you in Toastmasters? I recently gave a speech about this topic to my Toastmaster's group. I spoke about the proton exchange membrane, and perhaps you'd like to include it in your speech. Type proton exchange membrane into a search engine and you'll get tons of information.
*lmao* That was so far over my head!!! This is just the "final" grade for my Oral communications class. I thought it'd be cool to talk about cars But thank you muchly for the offer! I'm not sure you could get me to understand the science of it enough to talk about it anyway! :hehe:
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Old 12-11-2001, 12:50 AM   #24
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A giant THANK YOU to everyone!

The speech went well, and people seemed to be somewhat interested!

~tangie
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Old 12-11-2001, 12:52 PM   #25
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In grade 8, I did my speech on corvettes. I got to the gym, and came in third. So it must have been good, because most people didnt know what I was talking about (whats "cubic inches"?? Are "disc brakes" good??? "Is L88 good??", and so it went, with no one really caring)
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Old 02-19-2002, 02:42 PM   #26
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Re the hrdrogen fuel, it is quite easy to convert water to hydrogen, but i reckon you you wont ever get to use it, there is just too much profit in oil.

I my self have been doing experiments and the main facter to increasing conversian, is raising the voltage, an automotive coil bangs out how many volts? - i think it is between 80 andf 100,000 volts. that is more than enough, so simply fitting a secondary coil would be more than enough Voltage the real problem would be tryng to increase and decrease voltage rapidly to enable acceleration and decelaration.

I can tell you that it is easier,and cheaper to convert water to Hydrogen than it is to bore for oil, and the refine it for petrol, so why are we still using petrol - simple, - Greedy capitalists, stuff the planet going to pot as long as the capitalists get their profit.

Two other factors help in the conversian 1. hot water converts quicker, than cold- once the engine is running you get heat no problem, the other factor is the surface area of the electrodes also no problem.

Through my experiments i have found that a hydrogen carb would need to be about four times the size of petrol one and that was using only 48 volts, so more voltage would equal smaller carb.


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Old 02-20-2002, 05:48 AM   #27
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The best place to convert Hydrogen, is as near to the place place of combustion as possible, ie the inlet manifold, - produce it as you use it, - there bye eliminating any risk of explosions, and of course all you need is a plastic water tank to carry your fuel. Just think tanking up your car from Tthe garden tap and a lot less risk of car fires, which would in a fair and decent society would even mean a reduction in car insurance - but dose any one seriously believe that this will happen?

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Old 02-20-2002, 09:29 AM   #28
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The best place to convert Hydrogen, is as near to the place place of combustion as possible, ie the inlet manifold, - produce it as you use it, - there bye eliminating any risk of explosions, and of course all you need is a plastic water tank to carry your fuel. Just think tanking up your car from Tthe garden tap and a lot less risk of car fires, which would in a fair and decent society would even mean a reduction in car insurance - but dose any one seriously believe that this will happen?
I'm not talking about any combustion of hydrogen. Fuel cells don't burn hydrogen. Carrying the hydrogen, in some form, is necessary. Either in the form of a petroleum-based fuel and reforming it into hydrogen or as hydrogen itself. Chrysler is now testing a method where the hydrogen is carried in a non-combustable compound that can be easily recycled.

With the "risk of car fires," there was a time when electric and steam car people thought an internal combusion engine was too dangerous to be on the street. Hydrogen power will overcome these fears as well.

While there is plenty of profit in petroleum-based fuels, there won't be that profit motive forever. As supplies get shorter, either naturally or through disturbances in the supply route, hydrogen will become a more popular alternative.

As the power provided by fuel cells increase, there will be fewer and fewer reasons why in internal combustion makes sense. Fuel cells are cleaner, they run on renewable resources, they're quieter, they're smoother...there's little reason NOT to like them.

Fuel cell powered vehicles will be in production inside of 3 years...and in mass production inside of ten years.
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Old 02-20-2002, 09:52 AM   #29
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Hi Hudson, sorry but i dont really know about he Hdrogen fuel cells, i dont supose you would know of a web site that could enlighten me do you?

Getting back to The point of Burning Hydrogen as a fuel though, that would also make a lot of sense, in fact cars could run on it now instead of LPG that is being push now in Britain, and need for the expensive of developing a Hydrogen cell. Only one reason PROFIT.

QUOTE>>>>
As the power provided by fuel cells increase, there will be fewer and fewer reasons why in internal combustion makes sense. Fuel cells are cleaner, they run on renewable resources, they're quieter, they're smoother...there's little reason NOT to like them.

There will be one reason to dislike them and that is th price you will have to pay for them, there is no way on earth will capitalist governments let any one get away with geting cheaper fuel than they are getting now, ( i Guarrantee you that fact ) Other wise we all be running our cars on water now..

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Old 02-21-2002, 09:43 AM   #30
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Nobody ever said they'd be cheaper than what we're driving now.

Competition will bring the price of fuel-cell cars within range of ICE cars within 20 years. THAT is capitalism. Fuel-cells are a better source of power than an internal combustion engine. Once the infrastructure is in place to provide fuel for them, capitalism will take over and the will flourish. You're assuming that the only profit is in ICE cars.

There will be companies providing fuel-cell stacks, electric motors, hydrogen as fuel, etc. Capitalism can only keep gasoline prices competitive for so long.

As emissions controls become more stringent and fuel economy requirements rise, fuel-cells will be the smarter alternative for the market.

Fuel-cells are expensive now. They will be expensive when they enter "production" in 2-3 years. They will be affordable within 20 years. I don't expect people to move from ICE to fuel-cell vehicles at a large additional upfront cost...but they will move when the price is competitive. And it will happen sooner than later.

I guarrantee this.
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