Automotive Forums .com - the leading automotive community online! Automotive Forums .com - the leading automotive community online!
Automotive Forums .com - the leading automotive community online! 
-
Latest | 0 Rplys
Go Back   Automotive Forums .com Car Chat > Buick > Park Avenue
Reply Show Printable Version Show Printable Version | Email this Page Email this Page | Subscription Subscribe to this Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-09-2018, 11:41 AM   #16
buick8791
AF Newbie
Thread starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Espoo
Posts: 63
Thanks: 2
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Smile Re: Buick PA 1991 no crank problem

Hi,

Thanks TechII again!

What I have seen under the dashboard, the relay is located in the very bad Place. I saw only the wire connector for the relay.


I have quite small palms, but maybe it is Impossible to get the fingers in there.

The only possibility in addition to cluster removal would be to take an good grip from relay wiring and to pull hard and see what is coming down.

Or how to proceed??

Br,

Pena and greetings from Southern Finland
buick8791 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2018, 01:39 PM   #17
Tech II
AF Fanatic
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Worcester, Massachusetts
Posts: 5,017
Thanks: 70
Thanked 618 Times in 610 Posts
Re: Buick PA 1991 no crank problem

Problem is you usually have to depress a tab to remove the harness from the relay.....and in addition sometimes, sometimes there is a locking tab, which you have to remove, before you can depress the tab of the harness connector.....

Stupid place to put it, if indeed that is the relay we are talking about....I have not been successful trying to locate it.....

Finland? Can't be too many PA's there!
Tech II is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Tech II For This Useful Post:
maxwedge (06-22-2018)
Old 06-10-2018, 09:11 AM   #18
buick8791
AF Newbie
Thread starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Espoo
Posts: 63
Thanks: 2
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: Buick PA 1991 no crank problem

Hi,

I took away the knee bolster and partly the gauge cluster to see what is behind it. The gauge cluster is attached into plastic case, so I canīt reach the relay trough it unless I make the hole into case if needed. Letīs see if I can reach te relay when knee bolster under the dash is off. More room to watch above the relay box etc.

Yes, I feel also, that there is not so much PAs in Finland, maybe ten, twenty or so. Same thing is also with GNs.


BTW, is that relay some kind of special, or is it bulk style relay from inside regarding functionality and components etc?


BR, Pentti
buick8791 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2018, 12:37 PM   #19
Tech II
AF Fanatic
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Worcester, Massachusetts
Posts: 5,017
Thanks: 70
Thanked 618 Times in 610 Posts
Re: Buick PA 1991 no crank problem

It should be similar to the set of relays in your engine compartment, on the firewall.....too bad the relay was not put here.....

Also, I think your relay is held in place with a 7mm screw in a metal bracket.....this is a useful tool to get at hex head screws in tight places, a 1/4" palm ratchet....just put a 7mm socket on it....



Tech II is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2018, 01:39 PM   #20
buick8791
AF Newbie
Thread starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Espoo
Posts: 63
Thanks: 2
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: Buick PA 1991 no crank problem

Hi,

and thanks again TechII!

I will continue the job to morrow and use the wrench you suggested. Hope I have the possibility to reach the relay.


BR, Pentti
buick8791 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2018, 11:26 AM   #21
buick8791
AF Newbie
Thread starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Espoo
Posts: 63
Thanks: 2
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: Buick PA 1991 no crank problem

Hi,
I found the relay attaching nut. It is coming out with an
ratchet spanner with some additional flexible stuff taped to the wrench, about 10 cm. The nut seems to be 10 mm.

Maybe there is not room for socket wrench. Let' see to morrow.

Br, Pentti
buick8791 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2018, 11:34 AM   #22
Tech II
AF Fanatic
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Worcester, Massachusetts
Posts: 5,017
Thanks: 70
Thanked 618 Times in 610 Posts
Re: Buick PA 1991 no crank problem

They are usually 7mm or 8mm, but they could use a 10mm......

with the relay released, hopefully it can drop down enough to do the tests on the circuits.....
Tech II is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2018, 10:00 AM   #23
buick8791
AF Newbie
Thread starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Espoo
Posts: 63
Thanks: 2
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: Buick PA 1991 no crank problem

Hi again,

the relay with itīs socket came down near to the fuse box to take the relay out and test the socket wiring. It was not so easy job really. It came out to to take off the knee bolster only and use the 10 mm ratchet spanner with some additional flexible thing taped to the spanner as I indicated earlier.

I did the test to the relay in our kitchen, and it seems to be ok. I served 12 v(also 9 v) to the pins 85 an 86 and and measured the ohms between the pins 30 and 87. So there is the contact between the these pins.

What next? Should I look the earlier posts to find how to test different things in the relay socket in the car, or could you please send me the instructions with the words, how to test it and what I should find, if the things are ok and if the things are not ok, where is the problem?



BR,

Pentti
buick8791 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2018, 12:47 PM   #24
Tech II
AF Fanatic
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Worcester, Massachusetts
Posts: 5,017
Thanks: 70
Thanked 618 Times in 610 Posts
Re: Buick PA 1991 no crank problem

Post #3....you will be testing the harness the harness connectors not a fuse block.....

Post #6 shows the wiring diagram....if you install a jumper between terminals 1 and 4, and then you turn the key to the crank position, the car should start....terminals 1 and 4 should have yellow wires going to them, if that is indeed the starter relay...
Tech II is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2018, 09:41 AM   #25
buick8791
AF Newbie
Thread starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Espoo
Posts: 63
Thanks: 2
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: Buick PA 1991 no crank problem

Hi,

and thanks for the help again!

I did the test from the starter enable relay socket(THE RELAY OFF FOM THE SOCKET). The relay and its socket came down laying on the upper side of the driver side fuse box.


So, this is what are the results:


Pink/black coming from the ignition switch to the relay socket according to the wiring schema you sent,

-ign key off:no voltages

-ign key on: no voltages

-Ign key in crank: about 12 v


Black/yellow wire from the relay socket to the pass key control module,


- ign key off: no voltages

- ign key on: no voltages

- ign key in crank: no voltages




Yellow wire coming in to the socket,

- ign key off: no voltages

- ign key on: no voltages

- ign key in crank: about 12 v


The jumper wire connected between the yellow wires in the socket,

- the car is cranking and starting, but dies about within an one second or so.


So,


how you see, what is the problem and how to proceed?



BR, Pena
buick8791 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2018, 12:16 PM   #26
Tech II
AF Fanatic
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Worcester, Massachusetts
Posts: 5,017
Thanks: 70
Thanked 618 Times in 610 Posts
Re: Buick PA 1991 no crank problem

Well, the fact that it starts, and then immediately dies tells me that you have a security problem......

Your pink/black and yellow wires are showing 12 volts only in the crank poition, which is correct.....and with the yellow wires jumpered, we know the other yellow wire is ok, because the car cranks over.....

As for the black/yellow wire, that never has voltage......it should be an open circuit, EXCEPT, when the key is in the crank position......when the key is in the crank position, the PassKey module GROUNDS that wire....that causes the relay contacts to close and crank the vehicle over......

The PassKey module needs two inputs....one is the resistance of the key....the other is an ignition input(which it receivers when the key is in the crank position)....When it receives BOTH, then it does two things: it grounds the starter enable relay AND, it also sends a fuel enable signal to the PCM.....If the PCM does not receive the fuel enable signal, it will stop firing the injectors and the car will die....

I have never seen the ignition input to the PassKey module be a problem.....I have seen the resistance input, be the main culprit of a no start problem.....as I said before, there are two wires that go up the steering column to the ignition lock cylinder...over time, every time you rotate the lock cylinder to start the car, this causes these wires to flex....eventually one of those wires will break....

We have bypassed the relay with the jumper, that's why the car now cranks over, but it starts and dies because it is not getting a fuel enable signal from the PassKey module......

Way back in the beginning we asked you to look at the yellow SECURITY light in your dash.......I said to you, put the key in the ignition, and watch the light in the dash......now turn the key to "on", don't crank.....that security light should come on for 3 to 5 seconds solid, and then go out......If it is not doing that, then there is a problem with the security system, likely the wires up the column......

There is a way to check those wires....you need to read the resistance of the black pellet on your ignition key....take the two leads of an ohm meter and touch the metal contacts on the opposite sides of the key in the black resistor area of the key.......Under the dash on the driver's side, you should already have the hush panel down....with the key out of the ignition, follow the harness coming out of the steering column, it will lead you to a bulk connector just above the e-brake.....in the center of the connector is a 7mm screw........unscrew it and then separate the harness from the bulk connector by pulling outward.....on the outer edge of the connector, at E12 and E13, you will see two white wires.....these two wires go into an orange colored sheath, that go up the steering column to the lock cylinder...put your ohm meter leads on the contacts of those two wires in the harness.....it should say OL or infinite resistance.....now put your key in the ignition lock cylinder, you don't even have to rotate it, just put it fully in....your ohm meter should now have the same reading as the reading you had when you took the resistance of the key.....if it still says OL or infinite resistance, then you know one of those wires is broken.....

Two choices.....replace the lock cylinder which involves taking the steering column apart, OR, go to your local electronics store and buy a resistor or combination of resistors, that equals your key resistance.....you will then cut the white wires about 6 inches away from the harness block, and attach the resistor to those two wires....solder them.....

Then try to start the car......

Last edited by Tech II; 06-14-2018 at 03:55 PM.
Tech II is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2018, 05:38 AM   #27
buick8791
AF Newbie
Thread starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Espoo
Posts: 63
Thanks: 2
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: Buick PA 1991 no crank problem

Hi,

Buick PA is now running! The problem was the broken wire(s) coming from the ignition lock cylinder(orange wire with two white wires inside it). I was lucky to get one right resistor to solder it between the wires.


Thanks a lot Tech II for a help!!!


Thanks also to maxwedge!


BR,

Pentti
buick8791 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

POST REPLY TO THIS THREAD

Go Back   Automotive Forums .com Car Chat > Buick > Park Avenue

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:48 PM.

Community Participation Guidelines | How to use your User Control Panel

Powered by: vBulletin | Copyright Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
 
 
no new posts