new ls swap!!!!!!!

[93civic$racer]

Hey, i just purchased a used 92 ls swap for my 93 civic dx and i was wondering wat would be the best upgrade to perform first which in the long run is gonna lead to mid to heavy boost conditions???? This is my opinion: 1st upgrade to last........ internals, headwork(including cams, springs, retainers etc...), pulleys, fuel and ignition, then open up the flow system with exhaust, intake headers etc... then the big t3/t4 turbo and a custom built kit.......im new so im pretty sure that order isnt correct or could be corrected so any help would be greatly appreciated thanx alot.

[Dumped91Hatch]

Well first of all you can't use a Header with a turbo, so don't bother with that. First I would build the bottom of the motor and work your way to the top. Start with Iron sleeves and forged pistons and all that good stuff. Then go to the valvetrain and upgrade all of that. Then do the exhaust and so forth.

[eckoman_pdx]

Also, your going to need bigger exhaust piping once the motor is turbo'd versus when it's n/a. 2 1/4" is good for n/a, but turbo'd apps are more suited for a 2 3/4" piping (2 1/2-3" depemding on condtions, etc). If you put an exhaust suitable for the turbo'd motor on when it's still n/a (versus going with an n/a suitable 2 1/4" piping), you'll loose lots of hp and torque. That being said, if you are going to boost it, don't upgrade the exhaust until you finally put the turbo on. Otherwise, you'll put be doing the exhaust twice, because you'll have to change it once it's boosted.
Also, as said above. If you are going to boost it, don't bother with a header. A header is for n/a apps. When the motor is turbo'd, the header is replaced with the turbo manifold, to which the turbo is attached. The exiting exhaust gases spin the turbine wheel, which compresses the air getting sucked into the comperrsion chamber. The comperssed air then travels to the intercooler, which cools it (the air is very hot after it is comperrssed inthe turbo, and cold air = more dense, more air molicules, so more power), and then from the intercooler to the intake manifold (basically). That being said, if you are turboing the motor, don't spend $$ on a CAI or SRI, as they will come off like the header would once it is turbo'd. The intake for the turbo is routed to the turbo, and is going to have the piping run differently than you n/a intake that goes straight to the intake manifold.

[93civic$racer]

thanx that helped me out quite a bit.....also i live in va and im want to know if there is any places around here where i can get my car tuned once i get my ems????

[eckoman_pdx]

Originally Posted by 93civic$racer

thanx that helped me out quite a bit.....also i live in va and im want to know if there is any places around here where i can get my car tuned once i get my ems????

Well, as I am from oregon I do not know much about that area. I have heard a few names of shops in the area. Here arethe numbers. One is in Westminster, MD. It's called EIP Tuning. 410-876-1336 or 800-784-8100. I don't know how close to your part of VA that is, but thats the one that came to mind first. The other is called Peter Farrell Supercars. I don't know anything else about it, other than I read the name and contact info in a turbo magazine I have. The name seems strange, but it was in there, lol. It's in Manassas, VA. 703-368-7959. I don't know if any of these places are good, since I am on the oppisite coast. Sorry I can't help with that more, but I hope it helps.

[integra818]

If you fully build that bottom end, it's just as good as building a GSR bottom end...only you'll have a non-vtec head. If I were you I'd get a VTEC B-series.

[eckoman_pdx]

Originally Posted by integra818

If you fully build that bottom end, it's just as good as building a GSR bottom end...only you'll have a non-vtec head. If I were you I'd get a VTEC B-series.

Okay..umm...he has an LS, why on earth would you dump it for a GSR...that would cot much more money than an LS/VTec would. If he really wants a Vtec motor, all he'd have to do is buy the Vtec head (B16A or GSR, the B16A head flows better) and then do the LS/Vtec head swap (there are a few more componets, but still, they are minimul cost wise). Besides, the high overlap of the Vtec cam lobe can reduce turbo effectincy at high RPM's. high overlap is not good for a turbo, and thats what the Vtec cam lobe is. This is why Crower makes cams specific to turbo apps: 63401T (for B series Vtecs), 63411T (for B-series Vtecs, but a race core), 63421T (for H22), 62402T (for the LS). All these cams were specifically designed for FI apps. They feature a short duration, which equals low overlap and high lift. This increases preformance. Now, the LS already has a shorter overlap, due to lack of Vtec, if he puts on the Vtec head, he will benifit from swapping in the shorter duration Crower cams as well. The LS already has a much shorter overlap, so this is really not an issue or neccessity with the LS. The "non-vtec" head of the LS has it's benfits. Even if he wants Vtec, just LS/Vtec the motor with a B16A (or GSR, but B16A has 5.25% better flow and is 42.7cc vs 41.6cc for the GSR) head. Viola, you have Vtec. Still, the LS has the biggest head of all 3, at 45cc. I think the slight displacement edge (LS = 1834.47cc) is more benifical to the FI app than the Vtec head. But if Vtec is your thing, swapping a B16A head onto the LS will be much less than swappin in a GSR, and will also have more displacement (1832.17cc for the LS/Vtec with a B16A head, GSR motor =1797.36cc, LS/Vtec w/ GSR head = 1831.01cc)
Since he already has the LS, an LS/Vtec would be more cost effective than swapping, if he desires Vtec.

[93civic$racer]

i would have to agree with eckoman on that....with the amount of money i would spend on the gsr i could purchase effective upgrades that would surpass the out come that i would produce with the money i would spend...also i have just stripped the motor and i am getting ready to send it to the machine shop....i am planning on buying low comp. pistons, rods, maybe a new crank(need advice)...should i buy the internals first and send them with the block???

[eckoman_pdx]

Originally Posted by 93civic$racer

i would have to agree with eckoman on that....with the amount of money i would spend on the gsr i could purchase effective upgrades that would surpass the out come that i would produce with the money i would spend...also i have just stripped the motor and i am getting ready to send it to the machine shop....i am planning on buying low comp. pistons, rods, maybe a new crank(need advice)...should i buy the internals first and send them with the block???

I would buy the internals and send them out as well, unless you are having the machine shop purchase them for you (and don't mind it that way). Have the whole short block done at once. That way the re-sleeving, pistons, rods, balancing and blueprinting, can all the done at once. When you get the short block back, it should be good to go, only the head work left (that will cost less to do also, which is good). As for the crank, unless you are stroking the motor, the honda crank should do you fine (you need a different sized crank for this, included in the stroker kit). The honda crank was a fairly well designed peice, and will work fine. There are some nice cranks out there, lighter, maybe a little stronger, etc. All in all though, the Honda crank, suprisingly, can be used perfectly fine. There's not a real need to replace it, like there is with sleeves, pistons, and rods. Also, are you closing the deck/re-sleeving while it's at the machine shop? AEBS and Darton make good sleeves to re-sleeve and close the deck. Both are of the wet sleeve design, and close off the top of the deck, while still leaving the water jackets to allow coolent to surround the cylinders for proper cooling. They can both handle mojor boost, more than we would throw at it. The AEBS sleeves can handle 55psi. The Darton sleeves are simlier in the amount of psi they can handle.

[integra818]

Originally Posted by eckoman_pdx

Okay..umm...he has an LS, why on earth would you dump it for a GSR...that would cot much more money than an LS/VTec would. If he really wants a Vtec motor, all he'd have to do is buy the Vtec head (B16A or GSR, the B16A head flows better) and then do the LS/Vtec head swap (there are a few more componets, but still, they are minimul cost wise). Besides, the high overlap of the Vtec cam lobe can reduce turbo effectincy at high RPM's. high overlap is not good for a turbo, and thats what the Vtec cam lobe is. This is why Crower makes cams specific to turbo apps: 63401T (for B series Vtecs), 63411T (for B-series Vtecs, but a race core), 63421T (for H22), 62402T (for the LS). All these cams were specifically designed for FI apps. They feature a short duration, which equals low overlap and high lift. This increases preformance. Now, the LS already has a shorter overlap, due to lack of Vtec, if he puts on the Vtec head, he will benifit from swapping in the shorter duration Crower cams as well. The LS already has a much shorter overlap, so this is really not an issue or neccessity with the LS. The "non-vtec" head of the LS has it's benfits. Even if he wants Vtec, just LS/Vtec the motor with a B16A (or GSR, but B16A has 5.25% better flow and is 42.7cc vs 41.6cc for the GSR) head. Viola, you have Vtec. Still, the LS has the biggest head of all 3, at 45cc. I think the slight displacement edge (LS = 1834.47cc) is more benifical to the FI app than the Vtec head. But if Vtec is your thing, swapping a B16A head onto the LS will be much less than swappin in a GSR, and will also have more displacement (1832.17cc for the LS/Vtec with a B16A head, GSR motor =1797.36cc, LS/Vtec w/ GSR head = 1831.01cc)
Since he already has the LS, an LS/Vtec would be more cost effective than swapping, if he desires Vtec.

Ok, ok fine...swap a B16 head...happy??? But instead of having an LS motor with a B16 head, you can just take the B16 engine and put in the LS pistons for compression and LS crank for stroke...and use the same bearings as the vtec engine which were MEANT to rev past 8K RPM unlike the LS engine. Also, Vtec engines have oil squirters...could be an advantage, could be a disadvantage...depends how you look at it.

If you're trying to build the best motor for the least money then get a big block Chevy.

[93civic$racer]

Originally Posted by eckoman_pdx

I would buy the internals and send them out as well, unless you are having the machine shop purchase them for you (and don't mind it that way). Have the whole short block done at once. That way the re-sleeving, pistons, rods, balancing and blueprinting, can all the done at once. When you get the short block back, it should be good to go, only the head work left (that will cost less to do also, which is good). As for the crank, unless you are stroking the motor, the honda crank should do you fine (you need a different sized crank for this, included in the stroker kit). The honda crank was a fairly well designed peice, and will work fine. There are some nice cranks out there, lighter, maybe a little stronger, etc. All in all though, the Honda crank, suprisingly, can be used perfectly fine. There's not a real need to replace it, like there is with sleeves, pistons, and rods. Also, are you closing the deck/re-sleeving while it's at the machine shop? AEBS and Darton make good sleeves to re-sleeve and close the deck. Both are of the wet sleeve design, and close off the top of the deck, while still leaving the water jackets to allow coolent to surround the cylinders for proper cooling. They can both handle mojor boost, more than we would throw at it. The AEBS sleeves can handle 55psi. The Darton sleeves are simlier in the amount of psi they can handle.

Ok sounds good....also i heard of a method called pinning the block to make the cylinder walls stronger...basically all you are doing is drilling between the cylinders and water jackets and placing bolts to make the walls hold up under high boost...im not sure if this method is any good or not......also would a torque plate hone job make a big diff. or just go without it and save the money for head work????? And the engine is a bit rusty so would an acid dip be neccessary??

[eckoman_pdx]

Originally Posted by 93civic$racer

Ok sounds good....also i heard of a method called pinning the block to make the cylinder walls stronger...basically all you are doing is drilling between the cylinders and water jackets and placing bolts to make the walls hold up under high boost...im not sure if this method is any good or not......also would a torque plate hone job make a big diff. or just go without it and save the money for head work????? And the engine is a bit rusty so would an acid dip be neccessary??

I amnot sure of that, I haven't had any experience with "pinning a block" before. I would personally go with the AEBS sleeves. If you get the block re-sleeved with these, the cylinder walls will hold up fine under boost untill 55psi. If it were my motor, I'd go that route, and then save up $$ for headwork.

Also,to the other guy...what, do you know a damn thing about LS/Vtec's. You thinik they just stick a friggen head on. Hell no, they run a vtec oil line there genuis...geez.....look into how it is done before you bash it. And have fun stickin in the LS pistons to the B16 rods, with the LS crank. Hmm.....the LS Vtec will be easier and...suprise supirse...that LS block can handle 12psi of boost vs the B16A's 8psi on stock internals. For an FI app, this is far more benifital than the extra 1000 rpm 8k redline. It's not good to run your motor to the 8k redline constantrly anyway, are you forgetting that? Besides, the LS hits the peak HP and Torque Far lower than a GSR or B16A, over 1000 rpm lower. The LS/Vtec will have a displacment advantage of 1832.17cc to 1590cc over the B16A. That's a lot displacement. That equals a lot of torque, 127ft-lbs@5200 to the B16A's 111ft-lbs at around 6800. And when it reachs the peak torque at 5200, the B16A is FAR BELOW THE PEAK OF 111. The B16A is luckly to be around 100 ft-lbs at 5200rpm. Thats a 27 ft-lbs diff, and 1600 rpm lower. And when the B16A hits peak torque at 6800, it's still less, 111 vs 127. The LS still puts out 16 ft-lbs more. I'll take the LS block, than you.

[integra818]

I'm guessing you're talkin about me. I understand all of that...I know it makes power and all...but you'er STILL adding a high-revving head to a high-torque bottom end...unbalanced engine. I've said it once and I'll said it agian...if you want a high HP engine for cheap money...get a Chevy big block and put it in a Chevy.

[eckoman_pdx]

Originally Posted by integra818

I'm guessing you're talkin about me. I understand all of that...I know it makes power and all...but you'er STILL adding a high-revving head to a high-torque bottom end...unbalanced engine. I've said it once and I'll said it agian...if you want a high HP engine for cheap money...get a Chevy big block and put it in a Chevy.

If you are opeing up the block to add the pistons and rods, etc, do it right. Don't use LS or B16A pistons, etc, get some good, low comperssion weiscon or SRP pistons and Crower rods. It would still be cheaper to go LS/Vtec than build up the bottom end of the B16A with LS rods, pistons etc. All that work is expensive, not to mention the parts aren't cheap. It's cheaper to go LS/Vtec, and you get gobs more torque. It's plain and simple a better block to boost. All the work you described, still won't fortify the block to hanlde the 12psi the LS can. Build up the LS, and it CAN handle higher revs. Plus, the added displacment, and you still have much greater torque. Based on the fact he already possesses an LS, this is by far the cheaper route. With that said, I am not gonna argue anymore and I won't get rude. Point blank, all this argueing isn't helping out the guy who started this thread. If we want to discuss this further, it should probably be in a different thread.