HSVs are awesome

[Jimster]

I wouldn't deny that Holdens and Ford represent good value for the money, I'm just saying that they are by no means cars that have set the world on fire. Though in all fairness, don't most American boats (Interpid, Bonneville, Impala, Aurora, Crown Victoria) offer a similar mix of space, performance and performance (In some instances) for the price?


There are platforms that are just as useful a the current Holden platform, first one that springs to mind is the one for the Mk IV VW Golf.
It Spawned: A 3 Door hatch (Leon, Golf, A3), a 5 door hatch (Leon, Golf, A3), a Sedan (Bora/Jetta, Toledo), a liftback (Octavia), a Roadster (TT), a four-seat convertible (Golf), a wagon (Octavia, Golf) and a Coupe (TT). While the Mk V Golf will offer all of those eventually, as well as a Mini MPV (Touranand the new one by SEAT) and most likely a Soft Roader. Oh and AWD could be had on the Golf, Octavia and A3.

Or how about the previous Renault Megane? 3 Door Hatch, 5 Door Hatch, Sedan, Coupe, Convertible, Station Wagon, Mini-MPV and Soft Roader.

While neither of those cars offered Utes, they were never intended to, why? Because the Car-based Ute is really something that only Australians go for. The Chevrolet El Camino and Subaru Brumby are the only car-based Utes I can think of from a foreign market. The rest of the world use proper Utes (Like those from Japanese companies such as Nissan, Mitsubishi, Toyota, Mazda or Isuzu).

While I'll give you that the Zeta was developed by Holden, the VE Commodore that will use the platform is still someway off, so as it is at the moment, Holdens offerings are outdated, while the old Buick lump was dropped, since I posted that (In favour of an engine that sounds tasty and look forward to sampling it in the Cadillac CTS). But back when the VT Commodore was first penned, Holden held little prirority within GM, the resources given to them back then were nothing like they are back now and for the most part, that's when the current Commodore dates back to.

[engineer]

Originally Posted by Jimster

I wouldn't deny that Holdens and Ford represent good value for the money, I'm just saying that they are by no means cars that have set the world on fire

translated: CHEAP SH!T

[Thunda Downunda]

Originally Posted by Jimster

I wouldn't deny that Holdens and Ford represent good value for the money, I'm just saying that they are by no means cars that have set the world on fire. Though in all fairness, don't most American boats (Interpid, Bonneville, Impala, Aurora, Crown Victoria) offer a similar mix of space, performance and performance (In some instances) for the price?
For most buyers worldwide, good value is a crucial purchase prerequisite - more so than to disinvolved internet musers. You seem to agree with me - in world terms, AU cars offer amazing value for their price-class. Of your American boats only Bonneville & CV remain. As I understand it, SWB Falcon/Holden offers more space .. and definately more performance. Superior dynamics are a given, against that selection. AU testers report new Chysler 300 (RWD) has ok dynamics, somewhat less space than SWB Falcon, again a slower, more expensive car

There are platforms that are just as useful a the current Holden platform, first one that springs to mind is the one for the Mk IV VW Golf.
It Spawned: A 3 Door hatch (Leon, Golf, A3), a 5 door hatch (Leon, Golf, A3), a Sedan (Bora/Jetta, Toledo), a liftback (Octavia), a Roadster (TT), a four-seat convertible (Golf), a wagon (Octavia, Golf) and a Coupe (TT). While the Mk V Golf will offer all of those eventually, as well as a Mini MPV (Touranand the new one by SEAT) and most likely a Soft Roader. Oh and AWD could be had on the Golf, Octavia and A3.

Or how about the previous Renault Megane? 3 Door Hatch, 5 Door Hatch, Sedan, Coupe, Convertible, Station Wagon, Mini-MPV and Soft Roader.
I asked - and I acknowledge you did deliver. That makes two other platforms with the versatility of Holden's - even if they are literally 'past history' & no longer current. For now, I'd call it (barely) a draw. Significantly those others you cite were major models enjoying huge production numbers, while Holden manages same # of variants on an output of less than 200,000 units .. Innovative? Clever?

While neither of those cars offered Utes, they were never intended to, why? Because the Car-based Ute is really something that only Australians go for. The Chevrolet El Camino and Subaru Brumby are the only car-based Utes I can think of from a foreign market. The rest of the world use proper Utes (Like those from Japanese companies such as Nissan, Mitsubishi, Toyota, Mazda or Isuzu).
Ahem what do you mean Sir by 'proper utes'? Australia invented the ute concept back in 1933, surely that gives us the right to define what they are. Coupé Utility is the correct title. The other jap-boxes you cite are commercial-based small trucks, or mini-pickups as the yanks say. I could name quite a few car-based utes in recent years which have copied our idea; Opel Corsa, Ford P100 (UK), VWs & other marques from Brasil & other parts of Sth America, Asian derivatives, Indian, Turkish and god knows where else from. Proper utes indeed!

For an interesting read on ute history, see this:
http://www.fpv.com.au/index.asp?link_id=4.248

While I'll give you that the Zeta was developed by Holden, the VE Commodore that will use the platform is still someway off, so as it is at the moment, Holdens offerings are outdated, while the old Buick lump was dropped, since I posted that (In favour of an engine that sounds tasty and look forward to sampling it in the Cadillac CTS). But back when the VT Commodore was first penned, Holden held little prirority within GM, the resources given to them back then were nothing like they are back now and for the most part, that's when the current Commodore dates back to.
Granted Falcon features more contempary engineering specs than Holden (eg: double A-arm front end, which btw is more than Porsche offers lol!) and does avoid that ridiculous over-complexity which blights so many current Euro offerings, but AU preference is for an acceptable level of sophistication & capable dynamics coupled with generally-unmatched durability & whole-of-life economy

All-in-all I tend to look at it this way:

To some eyes AU vehicles are somewhat akin to an axe ..

a bit primitive, perhaps - but devastatingly effective

see above

[Thunda Downunda]

Originally Posted by engineer

translated: CHEAP SH!T

No .. but your post was

Engineer that where it belongs

[Thunda Downunda]

Originally Posted by Jimster

Ford uses a 15 year old floorpan with truck engines and a Straight six that has been around since the Jurassic period.

One last point: Your "truck engine" reference is I presume directed to Falcon's V8 engine .. a modern design which is a 32 valve quadcam, has variable intake, variable cam timing, drive-by-wire throttle etc etc - in short a 'truckload' of technology

The 'jurassic' straight six also has 4 valves, steplessly variabe DOHC - independantly variable on some models), coil-on-plug ignition, variable dual-length intake manifold, drive-by-wire and, like the V8, coolant-loss protection system. Oh yeah, and a huge (optional) Garrett GT40 turbo

Yet it seems all the above complexity and features are not nearly enough to satisfy the technological imprimata of certain critics

Whatever will?

[VS_Acclaim]

Many people bag out Commodores yet I see too many Americans piss themselves with joy when they see new Monaros and HSVs come out! Heck they even try import them to the states and England! As for value for money then Id rather drive an HSV which goes like a bullet than some over priced "equal".

[brett85p]

Originally Posted by Chris

Actually, HSV's use the same LS1 engine the Camaro, vette, etc. And smog protection is good, in my mind. I want to be able to breathe the air I'm driving through.

Try a new Pontiac GTO it is a Holden Monaro rebadged, I guess they will come out with a HSV type package. Also Holden commodores are sold in Saudi and other places as Chevrolet Luminas.

Its about they started selling V8 rear wheel drive four door cars in the US again!!!

[WILL_ma]

i have respect for fords, i have respect for the new Boss V8. It can be sed dat the boss is a better engine dan the LS1. but! i find it hilarious, dat even tho its a "better" engine, ford still manages to fuck up the GT everywhere else so dat it goes SLOWER, and handles WORSE than the Clubbie.
dats my post

[WILL_ma]

Australian Touring Car Championship/V8 Supercars
MANUFACTURER WINS IN HISTORY:
HOLDEN: 145
FORD: 104
(includes Ford US vehicles)

HOLDEN FOREVER!!

[replicant_008]

While racing does improve the breed anyone who has spent any time around an Australian V8 Supercar paddock would know that the race cars have only a passing resemblance to the road cars... eg rear ends, gearboxes, suspension, engines, diffs vis-a-vis a current clubbie.

Actually, a current Holden V8 Supercar probably has a closer resemblance spec-wise to a EB V8 Falcon than a current Clubsport as it has a double wishbone front end, a live axle located by coil springs with trailing arms and a watts linkage and a iron block pushrod V8 compared to a MacStrut front end, a semi-trailing arm IRS and an alloy pushrod block.

The Boss V8 is based on a US truck engine with some trick heads. It's has a fairly undersquare design with a longish stroke which tends to limit the maximum rpm but have the advantage of low and mid range torque.

The LS1/Gen 3 is a good engine - while it doesn't sport overhead cams and has a unfashionable pushrod OHV layout... it's cheap to manufacture, has good torque and apart from some early reliability and lubricant usage issues is pretty good unless you are tech-groupie (then you would buy one of the AlloyTec 190 SV6 with the stupid paddle shifters - talk about hype about a engine that isn't really that much better than the ECOTEC 3.8 let alone the Barra 6).

As for the handling equation... it's all in the eye of the beholder but it's generally acknowledged that for roadholding, steering response (particularly turn in), reaction to mid corner bumps and ride that the Falcon is better. The rear end in the back of the Falc is better imho but apart from the steering weight of the Commo there isn't a lot in the front end difference apart from turn in.

And if it's relevant the semi-trailing arm rear end in sporting commodores (especially with any load) tends to end the inside shoulders of the rear tires due to camber changes if you are carrying anything heavy.

On the other hand, the seating position in the Clubbie is better - you are always too high and the steering wheel too low in the AU-BA although at least the shifter has improved recently.

On the other hand, I'm now driving a Territory because someone else pays the bills.

[DjFreakquency]

I was browsing the net and just adding a comment to this I don’t know cars like you guys do but DON’T FORGET FORD HASE THE SMALLER ENGINE!!!!!!!!

[James Porter]

I just bought a 98 VT clubsport its only a 195i v8 with a exhaust and I llllooovvve it, only had it 3 weeks it has the upgraded seat package and leather. Just a pleasure to drive each day I just love it moreand more.

Best Value for money sports car if you ask me go the LS2 6L

[LS7_HSV?]

hey u guys in america guess what, i've got news of Holden Boss Denny Mooney's new plan with chevy, cadillac, and Pontiac.
Their gonna move HSV to AMERICA!!!
And the moment they do you'll feel the sweet taste of pure HSV power.
Hot, Sweaty palms, amazed about it all, scared to be behind the wheel, and amazed about its power, BUT THEN YOU TURNED IT ON!!!
Denny also said that while the tankers are over there transferring the cars over there gonna bring back a prototype engine back called the LS7 MkII or Just LS7 for the less powered one. They still haven't decided on the actual Engine size (either V8 or V10) most likely V8). It will have an 8.2L 423kw or a 7.0L 373kw powerplant of raw power. But you yanks will probably have to wait a year or so till you feel that.
Meanwhile you can still feel the power of 6.0L 297kw LS2.
I own a 04' HSV GTO LS2 and 0-100km/h in 4.9 secs flat, is amazing.
And we also are gonna get Cadillac over here and chevy. possibly pontiac.

[Jaguar D-Type]

Originally Posted by Jimster

Really, neither Ford Australia or Holden make anything of any note and none of it is anywhere near clever. Holden use a V Body with an LS1 and Buick V6's and Ford uses a 15 year old floorpan with truck engines and a Straight six that has been around since the Jurassic period. If you want innovation look to Europe, or Japan- but not to the land down-under.

So have you actually driven a new Australian car lately?

Here is an HSV video from a year or two ago

http://www.hsv.com.au/cars/vy2/video/premiere.wmv

Innovation?

The new 2006 Corvette Z06's hand-built 505 hp LS7 weighs 71 pounds less than the 2006 BMW M5's 5.0 liter V-10 despite the "F-1 technology."

[Crazy_Teen90]

Originally Posted by punk_911

From what I gather, HSV range are made from a completely separate company who purchase Holden's cars and make huge mod to it then sale them with much dearer price.

As for Ford and Holden family car range. I hate those earlier holden which looks so ugly so as for Ford. the new Holden SS series looks hot and the round butt is so smooth.

By the way I've seen some Monaro in Black and I ask the question.

" Why on earth you buy a Monaro in black? Isn't the whole point of gettin a Monaro is to be noticed, thus the need for a Yellow or Carrot Monaro "

Yellow Monaro ownz all your ass

HSV is a branch off holden, it doesnt buy them from holden, it has it's own damn factory that pump out thousands of these things a year. It does do all crazy mods to them but HSV and Holden are almost to completely different car manufacturs altogether.

Jay