Lets slay some ricers!

[Tomsriv]

All of the top of the line 1970 A bodies ran mid 13's stock on crappy tires and through manifolds and smog tuned carbs. They were mass production but expensive for what they were just like the Evo and STI. I think its a little harder to wring more power out of an STI or Evo than it was to get it out of one of those muscle cars because the 4 cyl cars already have a lot of trick parts on them, while the stock muscle cars have a lot of room for improvement.

[Jared_80]

He is the kind of "ricer" that makes me ashamed of the import scene.

[Jared_80]

Originally Posted by Tomsriv

All of the top of the line 1970 A bodies ran mid 13's stock on crappy tires and through manifolds and smog tuned carbs. They were mass production but expensive for what they were just like the Evo and STI. I think its a little harder to wring more power out of an STI or Evo than it was to get it out of one of those muscle cars because the 4 cyl cars already have a lot of trick parts on them, while the stock muscle cars have a lot of room for improvement.

The Japs have tweeked the Evos block to over 700hp I call that room for improvment don't you?

[Tomsriv]

Also, Jared you can probably vouche for this, when you go to the run-what-you-brung races you often see mustangs and camaros and a whole plethora of imports. The times for the domestics ranges from about 13-16 while the times for the imports range from about 15-18. Their are fast cars on both sides, but the majority of the people there, the regular guys that can't afford $3000 blowers or risk running NOS and blowing the motor are running those numbers. Their are fast ones on both sides, but the fastest average goes to the mustangs and camaros because they were designed to be fast and inexpensive.

[Tomsriv]

Originally Posted by Jared_80

The Japs have tweeked the Evos block to over 700hp I call that room for improvment don't you?

I'm sure People have tuned the muscle V8's to 2000 hp. Full-Race blocks based on Chevy V8's put out 5000+. So my point is the same.

[PWMAN]

Originally Posted by Jared_80

He is the kind of "ricer" that makes me ashamed of the import scene.

Hmm, we finally agreed on something! Imagine that.
BTW, I am not an all-out V8 muscle car motor head. I own a 4 cylinder, and 2 V8 vehicle. I like the 4 banger just as much as the V8's. I really do believe in their potential, I'm just saying it's much harder and more expensive to get it there compared to a larger displacement engine. I mean, you can build a 500 HP small block chevy for under 4K including labor and everything. The turbo kit and engine management for those kind of HP levels on a 4 cylinder alone are going to cost you about 4K. Then all the internals will cost 2K, then all the labor and machine work probably another 3K. So it's atleast twice the price, plus it's never going to have the torque that the V8 will.

[PWMAN]

Originally Posted by Tomsriv

I'm sure People have tuned the muscle V8's to 2000 hp. Full-Race blocks based on Chevy V8's put out 5000+. So my point is the same.

Top fuel dragsters have 6-7 thousand HP. See any 4 bangers with those kind of HP ratings lately?
The most powerful 4 banger I ever heard of was 4000 HP, and that was 4.5L-much more displacement than the average racer is going to have. And I'm sure the torque was no where near that of the top fuel dragsters.

[Jared_80]

Originally Posted by Tomsriv

I'm sure People have tuned the muscle V8's to 2000 hp. Full-Race blocks based on Chevy V8's put out 5000+. So my point is the same.

No I mean 700hp in street trim driving on street tires. I have seen over 1200hp on the dragstrip on alcohol.

[Jared_80]

Yea you are right it is alot easier to get alot of horses out of a big block than a 4 banger, but the 4 is a more driveable engine in high hp trim because of their (some of them) VVTi and the sort. Plus a turbod car can run a street cam and still get alot of power when spooled up.

[Tomsriv]

Originally Posted by Jared_80

Plus a turbod car can run a street cam and still get alot of power when spooled up.

VVTI is great, I wish they would put it on V8's, but their is no way for the manufactures to justify it on a street car. As far as the turbos I agree, but the same goes for a larger engine, 6, 8 whatever, with more power strokes it will have a better power band. Their are people with 800hp street trim V8's that are running automatic trannys!

[RedLightning]

Howdy.

Quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by Jared_80
The Japs have tweeked the Evos block to over 700hp I call that room for improvment don't you?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How much money did they spend? 60's and 70's muscle cars most of the time dont have s/c or turbos so put one of those on and its makin even more horse power, if u have alot of $ u can do any thing, though i really dont think its as easy to get any of these cars to go 10 sec 1/4, as u guys seem to be saying, 500 horses gets a Ford GT to a 12.2 1/4 so u need mucho horse power to get 10s not at all saying its imposible though. how supposidly did did they get up to 1,000hp? the dude who said he'd rather have a fwd car than a rwd, whats up wit that?

[PWMAN]

Well it's a matter of weight VS HP. That CRX in the 10's probably weighs less than 2000 pounds. And muscle cars weigh 3500 or so pounds. And going by the 10 HP per hundred pounds rule of thumb, the Muscle car needs 350 more HP than the CRX to get the same time. I know that there is a lot more factors like torque and all that, but I'm just being pretty general right now.
Most muscle cars weigh atleast a half ton more than civics.

[Musclecarclub]

Weight is definitely the enemy of performance. Imports weigh less and thus need less power to achieve any given performance target. Of course, there are issues like weight transfer and torque that affect acceleration and tend to favor muscle cars.

[Jared_80]

How much money did they spend? 60's and 70's muscle cars most of the time dont have s/c or turbos so put one of those on and its makin even more horse power, though i really dont think its as easy to get any of these cars to go 10 sec 1/4, as u guys seem to be saying, 500 horses gets a Ford GT to a 12.2 1/4 so u need mucho horse power to get 10s not at all saying its imposible though. how supposidly did did they get up to 1,000hp? the dude who said he'd rather have a fwd car than a rwd, whats up wit that?[/QUOTE/]






I think that all he did to that lancer was reduced compression ratio pistons, larger innnercooler, larger injectors and a T-88 turbo, but I'll try to find that article again and tell you for sure, but I don't think that it was as expensive as you think. As far as the 10 second 1/4 milething you are not even takinging traction into account when you quoted the GT. I would bet anything that it could get into the mid to low 11's if it had drag slicks, or AWD. There have been FWD dragsters not only get into the 10s but the 9s and one that I know of actualy the high 8s. They get this power the good old fashon way lots of killer boost, aprox 2.5 bar and raise the redline to 9000RPM! But for street cars if you gave an Evo RS aprox 550hp (and a HD cluch) it would hit the 10's with it's stock weight. (yes the drivetrain can handle it) That "ricer" that thought that FWD is better than RWD is just an ignorent Newbee wannabe tuner don't mind him, he does not represent us. Make no mistake the ONLY thing better than RWD is AWD, and even that depends on the situation.

[Jared_80]

Originally Posted by Tomsriv

VVTI is great, I wish they would put it on V8's, but their is no way for the manufactures to justify it on a street car. As far as the turbos I agree, but the same goes for a larger engine, 6, 8 whatever, with more power strokes it will have a better power band. Their are people with 800hp street trim V8's that are running automatic trannys!

Here is a great newsflash for you the new Corvette ZO6 has Z-tech, which is Chevys equivlent to VVTi and V-tech. Unfortunetly they do not make the redline high enough (6500RPM I think) so it is a mere 405hp, which is nothing to be laughed at. But it still does not approch the spacific output of a Civic Si or an S2000. There are several problems with turbocharging V8s the first and most annoying is the crossflow issue which makes it hard to use a single turbo without extreamly expensive headers (the heat makes the bent downpipe expand and crack near the Y pipe). You could just install a twin turbo but then you have to deal with a whole new set of problems, especaly pipe work and the innercooler. The second issue that you face is that most V8s were not built for forced induction, hence their cooling suffers, and the blocks tend to blowout under the extreme high pressure and heat of high boost (except for speciality made blocks). This too can be fixed with water injection but since it is illigal in almost every form of racing (except drag racing) it is pure shooting in the dark to find a good system. These are the primary reasons that you don't see nearly as many turboed V8s as you see turbo 4 bangers. There are people who overcome all these chalanges and build very fast cars, but you can be assured that they know their stuff, even better than I do.