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Old 01-21-2003, 10:57 AM   #16
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The Veyron is taged at $850,000 when i looked. The Cadillac SixTeen is worth $250,000.
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Old 01-21-2003, 02:08 PM   #17
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Old 01-21-2003, 02:20 PM   #18
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Originally posted by FYRHWK1
dont think the Sixteen is worth its tag? it costs 250K, the veyron is probably going to go for over a mil. what tech does it have? a 7 speed with a dual clutch? yawn, not impressive, not for 750K.
When the Veyron was introduced, it was the first car with over 1000hp, the first car with a sequential seven-speed gearbox, the first road car with a dual clutch gearbox, the first car with such a impressiver sound system.

Quote:

the veyron also has a W engine, dynamically inferior to a V16, it requires very tight bores and thin rods to clear each other, it also requires a dual balancer to keep the NVH in check.
That's the only thing you can come up with? Volkswagen has used the same princip in the VR6 for years, without any problems. You just choose to forget the size and weight benefits they have witch is a much larger issue here.

Quote:

Should i go into the fact it runs 4 turbos and DOHC/4VPC and still produces less torque then a car thats 1/3-1/4 of its price, and is a LUXURY car? one running "old school" single cam, 2 VPC valvetrain?
Look at the numbers I gave you. The W16 produces 100nm less, but it reaches peak at 2200 rpm, and that with 60% of the displacement.

Quote:

This car ALSO runs displacement on demand, mileage isnt a huge issue but hey, it gets more.
And this is a new thing? Nissan has used this for years.

Quote:

And i suppose you weren't reading, that IS one of the best 4 speed automatics in the world, it wasnt an opinion. GM needs to learn very little about building automatics, BMW even seems to think so since the 5 speed auto in their 5 series is a GM part. . .
The 5 series is outdated, is the SMG made by GM?

Quote:

in fact, the Sixteen is MORE worth its money since it's priced equally with its segment and competition, the veyron is attempting to be another McLaren, with VAG backing it it didn't have a chance at that from the beginning.
Show me where you read the Veyron is compeating with the F1. The F1 was a racecar for street use, this is a luxury cruiser.
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Old 01-21-2003, 03:55 PM   #19
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first car with 1000? only stock, we've been doing that over here in the US with half the cylinders and less displacement for years, nice for a stock car but in the whole scheme of things you don't get what you pay for. 7 speed? just 1 more gear on a 6 speed, why is it needed in a car with such a broad powerband? more isnt better, and adual clutch is unnecessary, the SMG system shifts more then fast enough and its worlds less complicated.
sound system? don't make me laugh.

only thing i can come up with? i wasn't coming "up" with anything it's fact, the VR6 isnt known for its power or reliability either, maybe its overly complicated valvetrain but is that really something to be proud of? VW was first to use its designe because they were the only ones who thought it was a good idea, they still are.

60% of the STATIC displacement, you forget turbos essentially increase displacement, at a little over 14.7 psig (to take into account inefficiency) the motor acts as if it were double the size of what it is stock. People seem to think having a large motor stock means you cant engineer but a turbo motor is just fine, ineducated people . . .

nissan with displacement on demand? show me.

outdated? sure, and if i hadn't said that the 5 series would be just fine, lame attempt to knock a good transmission. No, GM doesnt make the SMG, the point was GM is likely the worlds #1 worldwide when it comes to automatics, since the 60's they've built autos which can handle more power with less weight and parasitic loss then their competition.

Don't make me laugh, the veyron is an attempt by VAG to take the "fastest" supercar title from the Mclaren, and handling be damned. they want a big topspeed and comfortable ride, AWD, 4 turbos, 7 speed, its all BS to make the car SEEM technologically superior, even if it only performs in a straight line.
BTW, we've been building custom cars over here that are capable of faster times, and i can always have a custom interior made up for my car if i decide to, then all your veyron has is a Bugatti nameplate, congrats
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Old 01-21-2003, 09:24 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by FYRHWK1
first car with 1000? only stock, we've been doing that over here in the US with half the cylinders and less displacement for years, nice for a stock car but in the whole scheme of things you don't get what you pay for. 7 speed? just 1 more gear on a 6 speed, why is it needed in a car with such a broad powerband? more isnt better, and adual clutch is unnecessary, the SMG system shifts more then fast enough and its worlds less complicated.
sound system? don't make me laugh.

only thing i can come up with? i wasn't coming "up" with anything it's fact, the VR6 isnt known for its power or reliability either, maybe its overly complicated valvetrain but is that really something to be proud of? VW was first to use its designe because they were the only ones who thought it was a good idea, they still are.

60% of the STATIC displacement, you forget turbos essentially increase displacement, at a little over 14.7 psig (to take into account inefficiency) the motor acts as if it were double the size of what it is stock. People seem to think having a large motor stock means you cant engineer but a turbo motor is just fine, ineducated people . . .

nissan with displacement on demand? show me.

outdated? sure, and if i hadn't said that the 5 series would be just fine, lame attempt to knock a good transmission. No, GM doesnt make the SMG, the point was GM is likely the worlds #1 worldwide when it comes to automatics, since the 60's they've built autos which can handle more power with less weight and parasitic loss then their competition.

Don't make me laugh, the veyron is an attempt by VAG to take the "fastest" supercar title from the Mclaren, and handling be damned. they want a big topspeed and comfortable ride, AWD, 4 turbos, 7 speed, its all BS to make the car SEEM technologically superior, even if it only performs in a straight line.
BTW, we've been building custom cars over here that are capable of faster times, and i can always have a custom interior made up for my car if i decide to, then all your veyron has is a Bugatti nameplate, congrats

Firstly- DOD has been proven unreliable beore after Cadillac first tested it in the 80's on the 8-6-4. What makes you think it'll be any better this time aroud- you don't think GM actually spenty Money developing this thing do you???

The VR6 powertrain is indeed very reliable- it is not uncommon to see 300k km examples still running on te smell of an ioly rag and they are capable of some serious power. There is an Mk3 VR6 Golf putting out 350 bhp @ the flywheel around here and trust me- that baby can fly.

I don't know of the top speed figures of the Veryon- but I'm guessing it is nudging the 400 km/h bracket- definitley a need for a 7th gear IMHO. Since there are no figures apart from engine specs released for wither cars (To the best of my Knowlege)- you don't know what you are on about - so be quiet

And don't get me started on your straight line BS- the Bugatti EB110 contained a similar set up to the Veryon (Just a V12 instead of a V16) and those who drove it loved it- so what makes you think it the Veryon won't be the same? And since no-one who doesn't work for Bugatti hasn't tested the car- I say shut up. And yes the Veryon IS technically superior- GM is just using stuff it found lying around the office- Bugatti is putting an effort into creating some very revolutionary technology. And Bugatti are putting an emphasis on luxury with Supercar speed- rather than making it the biggest an best.
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Old 01-21-2003, 09:49 PM   #21
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Quote:
- you don't think GM actually spenty Money developing this thing do you???
GM has spent billions developing this car my friend.And last time GM attempted that was in the 80s.(8-6-4)Big deal.Pull yourself out of the past.That was then,this is now,25 years later.Most likely they have made it work.And what your all refusing to remember is that GM has not said jack crap about quarter mile,0-60 or top speeds.That means you don't know how fast the Sixteen is.With a top speed of 252 the Veyron is very quick,but how fast is the Sixteen?You don't know.Two very nice cars.But being a die hard Caddy fan,I'd rather have the Sixteen.The Sixteen also has more technology.Remember,speed isnt everything.
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Old 01-21-2003, 10:00 PM   #22
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Right, How fast will the Sixteen go? I think it will get in the 220mph range easy. Im sure its geared high to do that since its a Cadillac.

Hey...i just posted my 100th of the day Had nothing else to do today since school was out.
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Old 01-21-2003, 10:12 PM   #23
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Have no clue how fast,the speeds havent been released yet.

100th?damn!
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Old 01-22-2003, 12:29 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scott 02
Right, How fast will the Sixteen go? I think it will get in the 220mph range easy. Im sure its geared high to do that since its a Cadillac.
You forget the all important aerodinamics. At first look i doubt the caddy is capable of anything above 180mph.
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Old 01-22-2003, 12:54 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by WakkaWu


GM has spent billions developing this car my friend.And last time GM attempted that was in the 80s.(8-6-4)Big deal.Pull yourself out of the past.That was then,this is now,25 years later.Most likely they have made it work.And what your all refusing to remember is that GM has not said jack crap about quarter mile,0-60 or top speeds.That means you don't know how fast the Sixteen is.With a top speed of 252 the Veyron is very quick,but how fast is the Sixteen?You don't know.Two very nice cars.But being a die hard Caddy fan,I'd rather have the Sixteen.The Sixteen also has more technology.Remember,speed isnt everything.

The only technology the Sixteen has is DOD and a range of impressive materials. As already discussed the Veryon is far more technologically advanced. The 7 speed sequential gearbox, dual-clutch system, the W shaped arangement of cylinders, mated to a quad turbo set up (Bugatti are still the only ones I remember who have pulled this off stock)
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Old 01-22-2003, 08:04 AM   #26
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Originally posted by FYRHWK1
first car with 1000? only stock, we've been doing that over here in the US with half the cylinders and less displacement for years, nice for a stock car but in the whole scheme of things you don't get what you pay for.
And people in Japan have does it with six cylinders and even less displacement, what's your point? A 1000hp dragcar isn't all that impressive, but a 1000hp luxurious street leagal car is.
Quote:

7 speed? just 1 more gear on a 6 speed, why is it needed in a car with such a broad powerband? more isnt better, and adual clutch is unnecessary, the SMG system shifts more then fast enough and its worlds less complicated.
sound system? don't make me laugh.
You fail to see the point here, what did Cadillac learn by using a gearbox thel allready had laying around? Nothing. VAG are allready used a similar gearbox in the Golf and the TT

Quote:

only thing i can come up with? i wasn't coming "up" with anything it's fact, the VR6 isnt known for its power or reliability either, maybe its overly complicated valvetrain but is that really something to be proud of? VW was first to use its designe because they were the only ones who thought it was a good idea, they still are.
The VR6 known for its power or reliability? A stock block can handle well over 600 hp, and still fit in a Golf.
And to this date, they are the only company that offers a V6 engine in such small cars.

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60% of the STATIC displacement, you forget turbos essentially increase displacement, at a little over 14.7 psig (to take into account inefficiency) the motor acts as if it were double the size of what it is stock. People seem to think having a large motor stock means you cant engineer but a turbo motor is just fine, ineducated people . . .
That wasn't my point, like I said, this engine has a flat torque curve, and more torque at low engine speeds.

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Originally posted by FYRHWK1
nissan with displacement on demand? show me.
Look at the Nissan President.

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outdated? sure, and if i hadn't said that the 5 series would be just fine, lame attempt to knock a good transmission. No, GM doesnt make the SMG, the point was GM is likely the worlds #1 worldwide when it comes to automatics, since the 60's they've built autos which can handle more power with less weight and parasitic loss then their competition.
The reason they are number one when it comes to making automatic transmissions, might have something to do with the fact that no one outside the US drives regular automatic cars.

Quote:

Don't make me laugh, the veyron is an attempt by VAG to take the "fastest" supercar title from the Mclaren, and handling be damned. they want a big topspeed and comfortable ride, AWD, 4 turbos, 7 speed, its all BS to make the car SEEM technologically superior, even if it only performs in a straight line.
So the only part of a car than makes it technologically advanced is the chassis?
And what do you know for a fact that makes you beleave the Veyron won't be fast around a track?

Quote:

BTW, we've been building custom cars over here that are capable of faster times, and i can always have a custom interior made up for my car if i decide to, then all your veyron has is a Bugatti nameplate, congrats
Like you said: Prove it
I seriously doubt you have made or will ever make a street legal luxurious car, capable of over 400 km/h, that does 0-300 in 14 seconds and still driveble on the street.
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Old 01-22-2003, 10:18 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jimster



Firstly- DOD has been proven unreliable beore after Cadillac first tested it in the 80's on the 8-6-4. What makes you think it'll be any better this time aroud- you don't think GM actually spenty Money developing this thing do you???

The VR6 powertrain is indeed very reliable- it is not uncommon to see 300k km examples still running on te smell of an ioly rag and they are capable of some serious power. There is an Mk3 VR6 Golf putting out 350 bhp @ the flywheel around here and trust me- that baby can fly.

I don't know of the top speed figures of the Veryon- but I'm guessing it is nudging the 400 km/h bracket- definitley a need for a 7th gear IMHO. Since there are no figures apart from engine specs released for wither cars (To the best of my Knowlege)- you don't know what you are on about - so be quiet

And don't get me started on your straight line BS- the Bugatti EB110 contained a similar set up to the Veryon (Just a V12 instead of a V16) and those who drove it loved it- so what makes you think it the Veryon won't be the same? And since no-one who doesn't work for Bugatti hasn't tested the car- I say shut up. And yes the Veryon IS technically superior- GM is just using stuff it found lying around the office- Bugatti is putting an effort into creating some very revolutionary technology. And Bugatti are putting an emphasis on luxury with Supercar speed- rather than making it the biggest an best.
:thumbup:

DOD was unreliable due to the engine control at the time, if you're too ignorant to realize that computer technology has come a long way then dont talk to me, i'm not going to waste my time with someone who blatantly ignores the millions GM has spent updating the system, tell me buddy can you even explain how DOD works and WHY the 8-6-4 didnt? i'll give you time to look it up.

this entire post is hilarious. a 7th GEAR NEEDE FOR MORE TOPEND? what are you smoking? the need for more gear ratios is to keep a car in a very specific powerband because it cant perform as well outside that, you're telling me a 8-9L turbo W-16 has a narrow powerband? yous hould do some research on this before you post.

the VR6 is reliable? i'll believe those who've owned them over you, their reliability is not their selling point, and 350 bhp is not powerful nor does it tell me a damn thing about the engine. there are numberous 6 cylinder and i'm willing to bet on inline 4's being capable of that without a turbo, i DO hope this 350 bhp VR6 isn't turbocharged. . .

using overly complicated transmissions and an inferior engine arrangement doesnt make you technologically superior, maybe to people like you who are impressed by 1 extra gear or a dual clutch, but some of us arent impressed with pretty lights and VTEC. I'll take an SMG over that 7 speed any day, not only is it lighter its less complicated, thats why it's superior.
And there isn't a damn bit of revolutionary technology in this car, nobody needs a W engine nor is it a performance wonder, the suspension is nothing new nor is the transmission anything that could be useful outside of an $850K abomination.

Quote:
You forget the all important aerodinamics. At first look i doubt the caddy is capable of anything above 180mph.
#1 even with a piss poor aerodynamic profile the car is well capable of speeds above that, #2 quote me where you got the Cd numbers that you're basing your decision on? What I see is this, the proper aerodynamic profile for a car would be 4 times as long as it is high, notice why many of the dedicated bonneville cars are so long and low.

Another thing that i see is that the car has a long flat profile leading up to the windshield and a fairly sharply raked windshield, and a cab that leads nearly to the rear of the car, it's not as effective as say Porsche's cab design in terms of aerodynamics but this IS a luxury car.

you're right, people in japan have done it, with the aid of turbos and race fuel, we have all motor cars doing that, i can link you to a 1200 hp turbo smallblock that runs on our piss poor pump gas, would you like to see it? i made a brash comment, 1000 HP isn't very impressive while a 1000 hp car with a good powerband is what truly matters, japan cant say they have the latter.

already used a similar gearbox? :hehehe: sure, lets see the similarities of this golf gearbox to the veyrons.

I looked for quite a while on the nissan pesident, noone ever said anything about the engine except it being a 4.4L V8, no mention of DOD or anything like it, like to prove your statement?

a V6 isn't needed in such a small car, and 600 hp isn't extremely impressive anymore, i'd like to SEE a VR6 making 600 hp regardless, i've never come across anything close.

show me the dyno proving it has a flatter curve? typically, not that this is law, but the higher you make your torque peak the longer your curve stays flat. this isn't always the case but with a near 14L V16 i'm betting it is, the W16 might have its torque peak at alower RPM but that doesnt mean it has a better powerband.

the fact that the veyron is a large car aimed at the touring/luxury market leads me to the decision that it's not going to be as fast around a track as it's "technology" and pricetage implies.

0-300 KMH in 14 seconds? lets see the veyron do that, as of now the Callaway Corvette has done 254 mph on pump gas and it was fully street legal, the body was also essentially stock, with only diffusers and some downforce aids added to the original design. There are cars driven on the street capable of reaching 160 MPH + in 1/4 of a mile, crossing that in as low as 8 seconds. And they didnt need a W16, 4 tubos or a dual clutched 7 speed to do it, either.
As to interior, any custom interior will always be more luxurious to THAT person because they had it done as they wanted, interior is a personal opinion, remember.

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Old 01-22-2003, 02:03 PM   #28
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Originally posted by FYRHWK1
already used a similar gearbox? :hehehe: sure, lets see the similarities of this golf gearbox to the veyrons.

Look at the Golf R32.

Quote:

I looked for quite a while on the nissan pesident, noone ever said anything about the engine except it being a 4.4L V8, no mention of DOD or anything like it, like to prove your statement?

Well, look some more.

Quote:

a V6 isn't needed in such a small car, and 600 hp isn't extremely impressive anymore, i'd like to SEE a VR6 making 600 hp regardless, i've never come across anything close.

Well, a V16 isn't needed in in the Sixteen either, but it's fun.
I'll upload it later, but here is a 520hp VR6.

Quote:

show me the dyno proving it has a flatter curve? typically, not that this is law, but the higher you make your torque peak the longer your curve stays flat. this isn't always the case but with a near 14L V16 i'm betting it is, the W16 might have its torque peak at alower RPM but that doesnt mean it has a better powerband.

This, like all other VAG turbo engines, uses low presure turbos to get a flat torque curve

Quote:

the fact that the veyron is a large car aimed at the touring/luxury market leads me to the decision that it's not going to be as fast around a track as it's "technology" and pricetage implies.

It's shorter, lower and lighter than a Z06 or a 360 Modena, if you acctually read what I said in the first place, you would know this.

Quote:

0-300 KMH in 14 seconds? lets see the veyron do that, as of now the Callaway Corvette has done 254 mph on pump gas and it was fully street legal, the body was also essentially stock, with only diffusers and some downforce aids added to the original design. There are cars driven on the street capable of reaching 160 MPH + in 1/4 of a mile, crossing that in as low as 8 seconds. And they didnt need a W16, 4 tubos or a dual clutched 7 speed to do it, either.

That car costed $400k in 1988, around $500k today. That's a lot of money for a car that's only capable of going fast.
For €600k you can buy a MTM Audi TT that does over 370 km/h, but it's still just a modified TT.
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Old 01-22-2003, 02:48 PM   #29
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and what similarities coudl the R32 possibly have with the 7 speed dual clutched veyron box? its not an amazingly advanced tranny, its just a 7 speed with a second clutch integrated.

I still havent found anything on the president running DOD, i'm starting to think it doesnt exist.

not a bad motor, thats a peaky graph, but it's impressive for a small motor, i take it it's running on pump gas? and 80 hp is still a good bit away. . .

other VAG motors arent W16s, i'll wait for a dyno of both cars to make a decision.

2,720 lbs? where did you get that info by the way? thats fairly light for a car of its size, and the Z06s wheelbase is 2655.5 / 104.5 mm/in, 4565.6 / 179.7 overall length and 1211.5 / 47.7 high, the Z06 has a shorter wheelbase (not enough to matter) and a longer total length, much of that is for cargo space and crash safety, the corvette is a real car you realize.

who says the Sledgehammer can only go straight? the C4 corvettes on a set of good tires and a non stock alignment have pulled over 1G laterally, the only thing thats to their detriment was a somewhat heavy curb weight, they handled plenty well stock with room for improvement.
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Old 01-22-2003, 04:35 PM   #30
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You forget the all important aerodinamics. At first look i doubt the caddy is capable of anything above 180mph.
Thats ones of the stupidest things I have heard.At first look,the Sixteen is very areodynamic.Very.I don't know the top speed but from what I have read,the Sixteen is a 200 plus mph car.With a car with 1000 HP areodynamics don't effect too much,though may I say again,the Sixteen has awsome areodynamics.

Quote:
0-300 KMH in 14 seconds? lets see the veyron do that
FYRHWK1,thats not a opinion,its fact,the Veyron does do 0-300kmh in 14 seconds.
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