The evo8 or ls1 firebird trans am??

[Joseph1082]

Well... if you are running 15PSI of boost, the pressure inside the cylinder is double that of an n/a enigne. The Force per unit area is doubled, so the total force on the cylinder and pistons is doubled. If wear is equal to stress over time, then over the same time the stress is doubled, the wear is doubled, and the engine's life is cut in half... I aggree, it's a matter of physics. I don't know anynoe who would buy a Turbo car with high miles.

[DVS LT1]

You're funny Joseph. I won't waste time debating through several posts to end up where we started - besides, you're the college boy with something to prove.

But to say wear is equal to stress over time, and that when one gets doubled so does the other, and the engine's life is cut in half - sounds ridiculous. Are you sure your textbook didn't say wear is "representative of" or "the result of" stress over time? Are you trying to say an engine set to run at 1000 RPM under proper maintenance will continue to do so for exactly twice as many decades as a similar motor setup to run at 2000 RPM - or something like that, see this is meaningless bullshit I wish to avoid. Forget equations and talk practical for a moment. So you believe a forced induction engine cannot last as long as a naturally aspirated engine, right?

What is wear in terms of an engine and what is stress? What do you think is happening inside any engine when its running - are the pistons being worn away or the cylinders being dramatically eroded? Its like, I don't know if you're thinking about simple little things like piston rings or manifold gaskets getting eaten up - sure that kind of wear is not only inevitable but practically common (and as I've said twice, accelerated with forced induction setups), but its certainly no cause to take your engine to the junkyard. Again, what do you think is getting worn away or happening when an engines life is being "cut in half" by forced induction (or specifically 15 psi of boost?). Each and every component is built to specific tolerances, and you're not wearing anything away if its being run within its tolerances - especially things like pistons, rods, cranks (things like valvesprings do suffer fatigue more but its due to their nature and their application). The beauty of certain forged steel for instance is that instead of breaking at its peak tolerance it will bend and then return to its previous form.

A 4340 forged crankshaft doesn't care if the 500 HP being dropped from above is being made with 15psi or 14.5:1 compression - provided that the 500 HP is within its tolerances. Right?

Do you think a 550HP 15psi fed LS1 will not hold up as long as a 550HP 14.5:1 stroker LS1, simply because its being force fed? Are we arguing again just to argue Joseph or what.

Originally Posted by Joseph1082

I don't know anynoe who would buy a Turbo car with high miles.

That would be someone who is not afraid to pop the heads off and change a few bent pushrods, because some stupid lamer thinks his old Grand National is over the hill!

[R32's Kick ass]

put it this way if you want straight line times evo 8 does 12.8 (at least the jap version does if ur in america then its a dif story. u guys dun have the yaw control or the electronic stuf for the awd an so on in the jap spec evo . duno about the power but i think its tuned down or sumthin for the usa version. real evo has over 300 hp mitsu jus covering it up because of the hp limit. on cold days makes even more thanks to turbo. on the track a evo 8 takes out a lotus elise by a bit (lotus elise was made for one thing to race an handle on the track) . evo 6 did 0-100km/h an bak to zero in 6 seconds duno but the 8 (might be bit slower due to the extra weight but it does have more power). the jap version gets new gear box also (6 speeder). im in aus so i duno wat the other car ur comparing is exactly but i wouldn't mind cheking it out if ne one got mechanical info pm me.

[Joseph1082]

Well, considering you are an LT1 owner, I think you would be on my side, but you love to debate as much as I do. And I am not arguing just to argue.
I am sick of import propoganda how "muscle" cars are low tech, blah blah blah, and how the Supra or Skyline can handle 900HP on stock intertnals. All that is to me, is propoganda, I've never seen it with my eyes. I have seen built up muscle cars, and a few imports too, all with rebuilt internals though. The 500HP DSM around here has a 20G turbo but a rebuild engine to match.
Even the import people I know admit that turbo cars wear faster than n/a cars. Easy Math equation, 550HP LS1, each cylinder is making 68.75HP while on the 550HP Mitsu engine each cylinder is making 137.5HP. Ok, so over the same amount of time, each of those cylinders are doing twice the work of the LS1. Now, every machine has a lifespan, pretty much expressed by the amount it can do over the course of it's existence. It will exist twice as long if it only does half-a-day's work instead of a full days, it's life is in Joules not in Years. This is one reason I like nice n/a cars, don't have the extra s*it to worry about.
As for you, I was actually looking forward to our discourse about history, but you never wrote back, I'd appreciated if you would, it is not everyday I get into an exchange with someone who actually knows what they are talking about. Is there something wrong with being in college? Weren't you there once? And so because you are out and have a degree, does that make you smarter than those still in college? I have been reading Ancient History since I was 12, can tell you the general history of the world just from memory, and know w/o a shadow of a doubt that I am a lot more qualified in the subject than many of those out there that have degrees in it. I assumed I already proved this to you but if you would like to you can test me.

[DVS LT1]

What was left to debate in that history thread? I suggested you do some traveling and you suggested America dominates the world.
"nuff said" no?

I'm pulling your leg about being a college boy cause you seem to like going off on a lot of abstract & technical stuff. I was sort of the same way - I'd get together with my buddy's studying business & finance and would tell them about all the crazy shit I discussed in class. The fact that I've finished my Degree means little more than I'm not as interested in bringing the material up to everybody like before. I do look forward to discussing these things with people who share similar interests though.

Sounds to me like you're worried about your LS1 block or something (correct me if I'm wrong). As much as I like putting down the Gen III aluminum mold its really not as questionable as some people think. GM did their homework. Unless its been really re-worked and over-bored I see the LS1 taking years and years of abuse...

And begging for more.

[Joseph1082]

No, I was just assuming you were tryin to say... I don't know what but it sounded insulting, but whatever, my BAD then! If you can understand me then you know I will debate against the propoganda til I am blue in the face...And I'd like to see these cars w/ 900Hp on stock intenals... I am tying to also back up my claim about the double wear, which I think the fact that over time the Evo's cylinders do twice the work proves my point, if anyone can say different, post... and don't say "Japanese make better enignes than Americans" that is a stupid an illogical argument.
DVS, I actually wanted to ask you the question of when do YOU feel the Roman empire fell, be it 476 or 1453???

[Dodgeramit]

Originally Posted by flylwsi

i don't know that we're looking for a pissing contest, or trying for it.

i simply posted a person who ran a high 12 in an evo, stock.
you said that you can hit high 12's in a firebird, and i don't think you said that was consistent, so why is my example blown off?

i'm sure the 12 second firebird is flukey, just like this evo, apparently...

but in a comparison forum, i'm comparing both cars, not both 1/4 mile times, and the question wasn't about the 1/4 mile.

stock for stock, i'd take the evo, all day, every day.

My cousin has an 2000 ws6 trans am. He bought it brand new, slapped on a set of bf goodrich drag radials, everything else stock and ran 12.80's all day. Lets see the evo with drag radials do that!

[DVS LT1]

Eh no bad there - I said I was pulling your chain - and expected a little heat coming back my way (wasn't going to start a flame war though).

I didn't realise you and the other fellow were comparing boosted 4 cylinders to n/a V8s. In that sense, yes I agree the smaller motor is working "harder" to produce the same 300 HP the V8 is making. Although if you think about it, the larger V8 is in some sense is working harder than the 4 cylinder because it has to turn much larger & heavier components - its rotational mass is greater than the smaller engine and you could say it requires more force to move it (it certainly generates more force as a result).

Nevertheless, my point was that factory boosted engines are specifically built to handle the strains compared to factory n/a engines. Cars like the Cobra and STi utilize much stronger forged and cast components compared to, for instance, the cheap powdered metal connecting rods my car came equipped with from the factory. So its like if you tried using that stuff in a high-performance boosted car then for sure you'd be cutting down the engines lifespan. But because the tolerances of these engines is much higher the everyday stress and working conditions is really not an issue. Don't get me wrong, I live by the "No Replacement for Displacement" approach. My car will never see a bottle or blower - we'll get down to the 10's the olde fashioned way: by getting her cranked & cammed up along with a really nice set of heads.

As far as "Japanese" cars or engines being better than "American" of course I agree that statement is pointless. I think its funny if anything considering so many of our popular Honda's, Toyota's, Ford's, Chevy's, and Daimler-Chrysler's are built within 100 km of my home - by Canadians (Ontarians specifically, which basically means people form all over the world! )

900 HP on any factory engine's stock internals? I don't know who argued that (sure would be tough to back up). I don't doubt it might be possible though - for maybe 1 or 2 quarter mile runs or track laps, but the engine would be gonzo after that. There's apparently a list of cars on LS1tech.com that have hit 11's (low and high) on stock internals - although that doesn't tell the whole story its still impressive.

[Joseph1082]

Exactly, hey, r u up for more history discussion

[flylwsi]

Originally Posted by Dodgeramit

My cousin has an 2000 ws6 trans am. He bought it brand new, slapped on a set of bf goodrich drag radials, everything else stock and ran 12.80's all day. Lets see the evo with drag radials do that!

gee, it took slicks for his stock car to run in the 12's.

the guy whose thread i linked from evolutionm.net ran 12.9 in an evo STOCK on STOCK tires.

joseph mentioned people running in the 12's stock...

stock, to me, doesn't mean slicks.

put a set of stickier tires on an evo, and you're 12's with stock everything else, just like the ws6.

what was the point of your post, exactly?

[crayzayjay]

The words 'slicks' and 'stock' don't go in the same sentence

[Dodgeramit]

Originally Posted by flylwsi

gee, it took slicks for his stock car to run in the 12's.

the guy whose thread i linked from evolutionm.net ran 12.9 in an evo STOCK on STOCK tires.

joseph mentioned people running in the 12's stock...

stock, to me, doesn't mean slicks.

put a set of stickier tires on an evo, and you're 12's with stock everything else, just like the ws6.

what was the point of your post, exactly?

First off I didn't say slicks, if you know what your talking about drag radials and slicks are two totally different things. Second did you see it happen? I could post I had a stock EVO that ran 12 seconds flat and no one would no the difference. Third 12.80's is roughly 6/10 of a second off the quarter from street tires which is hell of an improvement, besides the car still spun out of the whole. Last I'll give you the STOCK tires on the STOCK EVO but there is one difference, on an EVO you are putting probably 250 hp to all four wheels, on a trans-am your putting 300 to the rear wheels, which one is gettin out of the hole faster? If that EVO ran 12.90's bone stock, it was a fluke. It will happen very rarely when the temperature and humidity are just right, and that driver is pushin that car to it's limits. As I said before 12.80's alll day, every day.

[Dodgeramit]

I went and did some searching and the best time I could find for a stock EVO was 12.994 with a reaction of .514. I found some others that had exhaust as the only modification which only ran 12.90's. You put a cat-back exhaust on a trans am and that's at least 12.60's. Don't get me wrong, I'm not tryin to put down an EVO. They are nice cars, powerful for a little motor and on a road course the lsi will get it's ass handed to it, but in a 1/4 mile run the ls1 will dominate.

[96berettakid]

This all depends on what you plan to do with your car. If you're gonna go out and run on a race track then I'd go with the Evo 8, although I'd take the RS version over the regular. (no spoiler) If you wanna spend all night on the drag strip it could go either way. And If I'm gonna spend all my time cruising or street racing I'd probably go with the LS1. And don't forget rallying, although because I live in America that's not a major form of racing. My personal opinion is that the Evo is ugly and I see so many Camaro's and Firebirds they make me wanna puke.

P.S. I'd take the 03 Cobra over both as always.

[flylwsi]

Originally Posted by Dodgeramit

First off I didn't say slicks, if you know what your talking about drag radials and slicks are two totally different things. Second did you see it happen? I could post I had a stock EVO that ran 12 seconds flat and no one would no the difference. Third 12.80's is roughly 6/10 of a second off the quarter from street tires which is hell of an improvement, besides the car still spun out of the whole. Last I'll give you the STOCK tires on the STOCK EVO but there is one difference, on an EVO you are putting probably 250 hp to all four wheels, on a trans-am your putting 300 to the rear wheels, which one is gettin out of the hole faster? If that EVO ran 12.90's bone stock, it was a fluke. It will happen very rarely when the temperature and humidity are just right, and that driver is pushin that car to it's limits. As I said before 12.80's alll day, every day.

yeah, b/c drag radials came stock on F birds?

keep in mind the power advantage of the F body...
i'm sure that if you add 60 hp to an evo, it's running the same/faster than the stock F body...
what's the point, exactly?

and a catback on stock F bird isn't going to get you into the 12.60's...
unless you have documented proof on that, i'm not believing it.
at all...