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Old 02-12-2006, 04:00 PM   #46
zx2guy
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

and this stands for all motors in general? i just hear it about the old cars and then i can hear it again on these modern cars from v8's to i-4s. but thats cool that they arent like a 3rd and 4th style block. i can get big and small. most the time just by the general size, but when someone drops the work long block im left there thinkin: it doesnt look any longer then the others?
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Old 02-12-2006, 10:10 PM   #47
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

If you're ever in the market to buy or rebuild an engine they'll become very important to you, otherwise it means little.

Long blocks and short blocks are essentially parts lists, so they're subject to very broad interpretations [just like big -v- small block lol] -- my description was in general, so ask questions to know for sure.
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Old 02-13-2006, 08:00 AM   #48
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

Spinnercee,

You pretty much nailed the "long block/short block" thing. These are traditional "names" from rebuilders. A short block will come with the rotating parts installed, a gasket set and oil pump "taped" to it. A "long block" will have heads, at least. Some rebuilders include pan, covers, etc. Some do not.

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Old 02-27-2006, 05:29 PM   #49
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

BACK TO REALITY,

The phrase "BIG BLOCK" came from the muscle car era! -- Period!

It went like this...... " Hey, does that thing have a BIG BLOCK"? refering to the larger diameter engine offered after 1964 when the muscle car era started.

And if you don't have one of those wonderfull BIG BLOCKS, than you have a what? ----------- A SMALL BLOCK!

For the ease of any puny brains - Pontiac engines are mostly, all the same exterior dimensions, I agree.... But the larger 389, 400's and eventually 455's offered in those pontiac's were CONSIDERED BIG BLOCKS, with no actual external dimensional difference! - Further more, the 428 was called a BIG BLOCK because it was larger than the "BIG BLOCK" 389..... So yes there are BIG BLOCK & SMALL BLOCK Pontiac's - by catagory, not by dimension.

Slang wording took over through the years refering to certain size engines as big or small blocks, when by that time the muscle car era was killed by the emissions era with poor compression, and looking for fuel economy.

For the meat head that knows sooo much about Oldsmobiles.... The first two production years of the Hurst/Olds, came with the high-output TORONADO engine, not fullsize car BIG BLOCKS. The full size 455's of the late 60's were pukes compared to the high-output of the NEW - COOL FWD TORONADO 455!!!

So everyone knows, the first couple dozen Hurst/Olds that were built, were shipped with no engines so George Hurst could build these cars, but after the first couple, it became overwhelming and Oldsmobile just put the drivelines in them before they were shipped to Hurst.

No one before the mid sixties ever refered to engines as Big or Small block, some just refered to the CID or some had designations refering to a style of block or valvetrain.

To recap - After the mid 60's when the muscle car era started, most american car manufacturers had midsize cars with larger or smaller engines, and not relating to actuall external dimensions but cubic inches that made that car special.

Oh, to the meat head, or anyone else I upset with my CAPS ON, I appologize.

AL
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Old 03-02-2006, 05:54 PM   #50
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

QUOTE//It went like this...... " Hey, does that thing have a BIG BLOCK"? refering to the larger diameter engine offered after 1964 when the muscle car era started.//QUOTE

Diameter of what?? Read MrPbody's post, he explained it perfectly.

The Big/Small block classification is based on the external dimensions of the block. So a 396 Chevy is considered a Big Block and a 400 Chevy is a Small Block. Displacement is not the determining factor - even though big blocks tend to have a higher displacement of course.

Small/Big block terminology is used when the manufacturer offers both a larger and smaller exterior engine design. So to use Pontiac as an example, since all of their V8's had the same exterior dimensions, a Pontiac V8 is not referred to as a big or small block. Just try to find a die-hard Pontiac Enthusiast that calls a 455 a big block....you won't.
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Old 03-03-2006, 08:14 AM   #51
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

I'm a meat head, huh? Fine. Go to any of the "all Pontiac" sites and ask questions about your "big block" Pontiac. Prepare for an onslaught of "there's no such thing!".

A 366 Chevy is definitely a big block Chevy. It's even a "tall deck", and has absolutely NOTHING to do with muscle cars.

Today, the BBC offered by GM is called "Mark VI". In 1958, Chevy introduced their first "big block" engine, 348. It was later known as "Mark I". 409 was released late in '61. Mark II. Again, well before "muscle cars". In January of '63, Chevy showed up at Riverside with the infamous 427 "Mystery" engine. It was a cross between 409 and what we now call "Mark IV". It was immediately banned from competition in both NASCAR and NHRA, as it was NOT a production engine, available to the general public. Mark III... Mark V was a cross-over design, used only for about 1 1/2 years in the mid '90s. It was the first BBC to sport the 1-piece rear main seal. Mark IV is the BBC we know and love. 366 CID through 502, it's among the best automotive powerplants ever made by anyone. Produced from '65 through '94, 366, 396, 400 (GMC, really a 402), 402, 427, 454 and 502.

According to Jim Wangers, in his book "Glory Days", no engine larger than 400 CID was EVER installed at the factory in intermediate bodies until the beginning of the 1970 model year. He specifically included the Husrst Olds, as an aftermarket option. Now, we know there were a few 421 GTOs, 425 442s and a handful of 427 Chevelles used as "ringers" in magazine tests before '68. Jim admits to this, at least regarding the Pontiacs, in his book. We ALL know, a '67 442 is NOT going to go 12s without some serious help, both with power and traction. Same with a 389 TriPower GTO and a Chevelle SS396.

It's clear, you're redifining the designation to fit your perception of the concept, without regard to both technical and traditional names and vernacular. As stated before, all these things were "named" and in our car culture, before we knew we HAD a "car culture". Having worked "in the business" for 30 years, I believe I'm in a good position to reflect and pass on some of the "old ways" to the younger set, to help keep myth and superstition at a minimum. As an ASE Master Engine Builder and legally recognized "expert" (both criminal and civil court), I must be careful how I word things, and what the technical content is. I will NEVER post ANYTHING I don't KNOW to be accurate. Unless I qualify it as an "opinion", you can take it to the bank! it is NOT my opinion that Pontiac is not a "small block" or a "big block", it's a matter of physics. None are bigger or smaller than the others. Perhaps one of your "buds" called it a big block, and being ignorant, you thought he was more informed than you... NOT!

Now, lighten up and stop trying to rearrange things to meet YOUR view, and accept what has been since before you were born.

Jim
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Old 02-14-2007, 04:51 PM   #52
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

By general consensus, even in this forum, there is such a thing as "big block" and "small block" when speaking about certain engines from various manufacturers. The terms are called "jargon"; expressions used by people in specialized fields, that are not otherwise universal terms or words. In this case, terms like "small block" are used by the auto enthusiasts of a certain marque to identify a particular engine made by that manufacturer. In the fifties, V8 engines were just becoming accepted by US consumers and most manufacturers had only one design, with several displacements. Because the general consensus felt Vee design engines would not be dependable, these early V8s were of heavy duty construction, to replace the proven inline eights. It could be argued the smaller V8 designs were done to replace the large displacement inline sixes by citing how Chevrolet debuted their "big block" as a truck engine, and the "small block" for cars, but one case does not make a statistical average. The Ford "Windsor V8" began with quite small displacements; 230 cid? -like a six size. But by the sixties, GM, Ford and Chrysler had two V8 engine designs; a larger and smaller design, along with their proven inline six engines. At that time, it was easy to differentiate between the two by saying "small block" or "big block", not venturing off into the hairsplitting of displacement variations. Confusion comes into play when the terms "big block" and "small block" are applied to manufacturers who did not have two V8 engines designs, as in the case of makers like Pontiac and AMC. The breakaway point is naming the engine as the maker named it, and what the particular marque enthusiasts refer to it as being. The next level of understanding would be noting the year model, displacement and weight, along with the name of the motor, such as a '58 650 lb. 332 cid. Ford "FE V8", or a '66 540 lb. 290 "AMC V8", without using the jargon of other marque enthusiasts. In the case of AMC, confusion abounds for lack of good information; The US Society of Automotive Engineers awarded the '69 and '70 AMX the "Best Engineered Car of the Year Award", not for AMC's "barbaric" engineering... but for it's quality of design. Perhaps it was for AMC holding the lowest priced car made in USA catagory with the Rambler American and the AMC Gremlin they are derided by non-enthusiasts for being a manufacturer of "cheap" cars, but the Gremlin has no poor quality reputation like the Chevrolet Vega with it's absurd aluminum sleeved four cylinder engine. Fact is there is alot of variation of design by the car manufacturers, all steps in history, no perfect eternal cars, no perfect eternal engines. The everlasting car became a problem of how to deal with discarded cars. Cars are designed for recycling nowadays, for good reason. As for me, any car from any US automaker in the sixties is a good candidate for a hobby car, for a having a favorable mix of tough durable engines, strong workable and weldable steel auto body contruction, and the superior quality American Standard nut and bolt fastener system. I expect the audience here will enjoy the several cutaway views of V8 engines at my website <amcramblermarlin.1colony.com>
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Old 02-18-2007, 02:34 AM   #53
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

MrPbody,

Always appreciate your real world knowledge on automotive subjects! Excluding aluminum blocks, perhaps we could set a dividing line for big block vs. small block by weight? I'm thinking somewhere between 450-500 lbs for complete engines as a dividing line. Might make the difference between a Ford 351 and 352 more clear. I'll bet you've got the relevant numbers in your head!

BTW my Suburban 383 made 150hp and 250 lb ft torque at the rear wheels on the dyno. Do we roughly double those numbers for advertised figure comparison?
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Old 02-18-2007, 12:25 PM   #54
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

I wouldn't go there sub006 (weight) -- basically we were initially talking about Chevrolet Only -- and only Chevrolet guys use the common terms of "big" and "small" block to refer to the Mark IV "big block" V8 vs the original Chevy V8 that are more different in design than in size -- so when Chevy guys talk about big and small blocks they're implying an internal and external design difference, thus different frame mouning, etc, enough so that few parts interchange. Also from a car builder's perspective, if a car has a small block in it, it can be replaced with any other small block regardless of displacement without much modification to the host automobile and external engine accessories, and the same applies if the host had a big block, just about any one will do without major surgery to the car's basic chassis.

Everyone else other than Chevy has differing designs for V8 engines of the same and different sizes, so you couldn't really "tag" any particular engine a big block and have it mean much -- "bigger" block would be more like it, and for some manufacturers, there exists more than two block sizes and designs, so there is more than just big and small.

Now, even Chevrolet has multiple small block and big block engine designs, but they still all fall into either the big or small block engine family.

* We Chevy guys would also never consider antyhing other than a V8 for small or big block "tagging," so things like displacement, weight, and physical size really have nothing to do with the names.
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Old 01-04-2009, 03:22 PM   #55
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

Help i would like to learn about the differance between the big block and the small block. Cus my bro is buying me a 350 small block hes racing a 410 big block. Can i still beat him on the track??????
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Old 01-04-2009, 05:14 PM   #56
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

Quote:
Originally Posted by newdriver88
Help i would like to learn about the differance between the big block and the small block. Cus my bro is buying me a 350 small block hes racing a 410 big block. Can i still beat him on the track??????
Welcome to AF.
It would be a REALLY good idea if you were to start a new thread on this subject in the Chevrolet subforum in this Muscle Car section.

We try to discourage anyone resurrecting old threads like this one, especially when they want to discuss an unrelated issue.

The answer to your question is complicated but here goes:

Winning on the 'track' is partially dependent on the car set-up and the driver skill. So it may be better to ask if a small block has more power than a 410 big block. In that case the answer is...... maybe.

It depends on how each engine is built. It is easily possible to build a sharp 350 that can out-power many big blocks. However, in theory, the big block engine has more power potential because of a better cylinder head design, more displacement and a stronger reciprocating assembly than a small block. However, it is slightly heavier, physically slightly larger and is usually more expensive.
But, there are literally hundreds of variables when building an engine. If you take advantage of these variables when building a small block, it will out perform many big blocks.
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Old 03-13-2009, 02:00 PM   #57
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

Why are you guys even talking about cars older. They invented something called computers for a reason, thats why your 40+ year old midlife crises overcompensation mobile gets less horsepower per litre than a GTI or WRX STI. A bunch of old men reliving the days with an engine that only proved how uneducated they were about real cars is quite sad. That being said, get off your high horses on cars that have less realistic value than a new maytag fridge.

Last edited by maxwedge; 03-13-2009 at 02:48 PM. Reason: Improper language and uncalled for criticism for this thread.
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Old 03-16-2009, 08:44 AM   #58
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

Sounds like someone had their "ass" handed to them by a V8 car, invalidating what he saw in the movies...

Eatingbabies...

Are you for real? The majority of MY customers are in their 30s, some in their early 40s. The "midlife crisis" guys are building Corvettes. And there's no Jap crap 4-cylinder available "new" in the USA that can TOUCH a big engined American performance car. When engines are built to the same "level of tune", the laws of physics take over.

A friend of mine has built what was (at the time) the quickest N/A Honda 4-cyl. there was. He made 500 horsepower! WOW! 500!!! Oh, my "pump gas" 461 makes 600 and over 650 lbs. of torque. My customers drive them thousands of trouble-free street miles and take them to the track and stomp those trailered-in Hondas.

It's okay you like the ricers. Just stop acting like anything else is inferior. You're starting to sound like a small block Chevy person, that believes a small block can beat ANYTHING. While it may be true, it CAN beat a LOT of other small blocks, there are certain Ford and Chrysler small blocks out there that can run 'em down.

Seen on a T-shirt at a NOPI meet here in Virginia: "Racing imports is just like the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded..."

Now go back to your collection of 1/2 engines and stop trying to stir up the natives! This IS the "muscle car" forum, which has no "import" category, simply because there does not exist, an "imported muscle car", possibly excepting the '04-'06 GTO.

Jim
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Old 05-19-2010, 10:51 PM   #59
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

What about in today's cars and trucks, what would determine small block or big blocks? According to the definition of the two sizes of a manufactures offerings, would the two options for v8 motors be the small and big blocks? For example would dodge have the small block 4.7 and the big block 5.7 and ford the SB 4.6 and BB 5.4 and etc with GM options? Thanks to all
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Old 06-22-2010, 05:52 AM   #60
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob2k8 View Post
What about in today's cars and trucks, what would determine small block or big blocks? According to the definition of the two sizes of a manufactures offerings, would the two options for v8 motors be the small and big blocks? For example would dodge have the small block 4.7 and the big block 5.7 and ford the SB 4.6 and BB 5.4 and etc with GM options? Thanks to all
There are no more big blocks. Manufacturers don't build them as large anymore to save weight.
Small/big block is NOT from the cubic inches. Chevy had a 400 small block and a 396 big block. It purely based on the physical outside size of the engine really.
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