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Old 01-12-2006, 01:46 PM   #31
MrPbody
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

AMX was a "short wheelbase" Javelin. it could be considered a "mini pony"... (:- The Rebel "Machine" was AMC's muscle car offering. It was a Rebel (midsize car) with the same (I BELIEVE, but don't quote me... 330HP) 390 as the Javelin SST and the AMX.

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Old 01-12-2006, 05:36 PM   #32
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Re: Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPbody
AMX was a "short wheelbase" Javelin. it could be considered a "mini pony"... (:- The Rebel "Machine" was AMC's muscle car offering. It was a Rebel (midsize car) with the same (I BELIEVE, but don't quote me... 330HP) 390 as the Javelin SST and the AMX.
Jim


I think if AMC would have gotten into it sooner they would have had cars that would have made a bigger mark, I think the AMX has some nice lines, and some of it's factroy paint and decals felt more "70's" then a 69 judge.

Is it me or dose AMC and Scout cars and trucks seem more import-ish then American?

Long live the tubed gremlin!
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Old 01-13-2006, 04:26 PM   #33
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

With mopars, the best I know is small blocks had the distributor in the back...BB had it in the front
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Old 01-14-2006, 09:16 AM   #34
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

It's you... AMCs were notorious for poor quality of construction, which is what led to their demise. But they had Motorcraft carbs, MOPAR alternators, GM distributors, etc.

For many years, AMX was the top dog in B/SS and B/SSA. They're still quite competitive at certain levels within NHRA and IHRA. There's a local Richmonder (actually Dinbwiddie), that has a '69 Javelin that runs in the 9s all month. 401, solid roller, considerable modifications to the engine.

Nope, nuthin' "importish" about them. Pure American, but not REAL good cars (don't confuse "good" with "fast"). They were made in Kenosha, Wisconsin. Because they were in such financial trouble, the engineering and construction were pretty barbaric.
Gremlins (like the one in the above pic) can be MONSTERS! There's one in Tucson, with a blown 401, does 4' wheelies and runs in the high 8s (on 93 octane, a true "street car").

The IH stuff (Scouts and pickups) were also purely American. The old IH engines are tough and good low-end, but not much use for performance. Until they were discontinued, IH pickups were considered the "highest level" of American light trucks. They DID cost a bunch more than the equal F-250, but I doubt they were significantly better.
I worked at a dealer in Idaho when I was younger, and worked on the pickups and Scouts. The farmers that owned them wouldn' give them up for anything! They were absolutey NO FUN to work on... (like the AMC products, rather barbaric in nature, but much better engineered and constructed)
FWIW

Jim
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Old 01-15-2006, 03:59 PM   #35
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

I have always been taught that the difference between BB's and SB's is this...no matter what the displacement, no matter the manufacturer, it is the thickness of the cylinder walls and their ability to be bored out. a small block does not have thick enough cylinder walls so to to afford it the ability to be bored. a big block does however have thick enough cylinder walls and is so call a "Big Block".

Now I may be wrong, however that is the simplest definition that I have ever recieved and the only one that makes sense.
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Old 01-15-2006, 04:04 PM   #36
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

I have a 383 small-block Chevy in my Suburban and my son has a 388in his '63 Chevy II. Both of these engines have big-block power in a small-block package. To say nothing of the new 'Vette Z06 427 small-blocks.

But big-block Chevies DO have room in their heads for bigger valves! They are physically bigger and they're HEAVIER.

And by the way, the "Cologne V6" got its name from the town where German Ford made them!
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Old 01-16-2006, 01:51 AM   #37
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

When you add the stress of what a SB has to do, say a 383SBC to what a BB396 does all day long without the stress, I would take the BB any day of the week, that is if I was a Chevy guy. wow allmost puked,,,,

Mr. P I sould have said Mopar-ish, or is it Slow-par-ish?

IH did have the Scout, it did good in the 4x4 world (rust issus) and had some cool looking ideas, they sadly came late.
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Old 01-16-2006, 10:12 PM   #38
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

The Chevrolet BB (Rat) and SB (Mouse) are totally apples and oranges -- that basically means that the design is fundamentally different -- it also means that the basic parts do not interchange between them, and that's true -- cams, crank, heads lifters, pushrods, intake and exhaust manifolds, water pump, fuel pump, harmonic balancer, flywheel, etc... are all "long-block" specific. The head design is significantly different as well, with the BB valve angles, and port config being vastly different from the SB.

Heck, if you "know" Chevrolet engines, you can tell them all apart at first sight. [The valve cover bolt patterns are a dead give away]
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Old 01-21-2006, 08:32 AM   #39
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

can you tell a BB tall deck apart from a BB?

I love hearing people ask me if I have a BB under the hood, I say no it's a Pontiac.

Then about 15mins later they get it.

The Pontiac is the working mans car, if you have a Pontiac you can change just about everything out of it and put it on another engine, pontiac engine.

Like a have allways said, if Pontiac had a Truck line things could have been different.

Well atleast for a while longer, the Ford SD may have never come to be, because Ford used it, but if Pontiac had a truck line i'm sure SD PMD P/U would have been a hot ticket.
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Old 01-21-2006, 11:07 AM   #40
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

Yes, even the Chevrolet tall-deck BB is "easily" distinguishable from the standard deck block -- I don't know too much about Pontiacs, but the distance between the water pump outlets and the head above them is the first place to look to ID a tall deck Chevrolet block.

I would call the Pontiac DRCE (Drag Race Competition Engine) a Pontiac big block [ala NHRA Pro Stock], but I don't think you'll find too many of them in a street car.
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Old 02-08-2006, 02:17 PM   #41
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

ALL OF YOU PEOPLE HAVE NO CLUE!

I USED TO BE LIKE ALL OF YOU, BUT BECAUSE I LOVE CARS SO MUCH, I HAVE READ ALOT.

I BET MOST OF YOU ALSO REFER TO ENGINES AS MOTORS AN ENGINE REFERS TO THE IRON / SOMETIMES ALUMINUM LARGE COMPONENT UNDER YOUR HOOD THAT CONVERTS FUEL INTO POWER. A MOTOR IS THE COMPONENT THAT USUALLY BOLTS TO THAT ENGINE, TO ROTATE THE CRANKSHAFT AND START THE ENGINE. OF CORSE THERE ARE OTHER MOTORS THROUGHOUT SOME VEHICLES AS WELL.
SO PLEASE - AN ENGINE IS AN ENGINE, AND A MOTOR (STARTER) IS A MOTOR!

NOW THE DEFINITION OF A BIG BLOCK HAS NOTHING TO DUE WITH CUBIC INCHES OR DECK OR BORE OR STROKE...
ALL DOMESTIC AUTO MANUFACTURERS IN THE 60'S WERE FIGHTING THE GOVERNMENT TO PUT LARGER CUBIC INCH ENGINES INTO THERE SMALLER AND MIDSIZE CARS, SO THE SLANG WORDS OF SMALL BLOCK AND BIG BLOCK CAME ABOUT...

-CHEVY'S - YOUR SMALL ENGINES 302,307,305,327,350,400, AND OTHERS ARE SMALL BLOCKS, IN THERE YEARS THESE WERE THE BASE MODEL ENGINES. THE LARGER ENGINES 396,454 AHH WHAT EVER-YOU KNOW, THESE WERE THE ENGINES THAT WERE APPROVED FOR THE CERTAIN YEARS TO BE INSTALLED IN WHAT THE MANUFACTURERS CALL SPECAILTY CARS.

-PONTIAC'S REAL EASY. 1966 LEMANS 326 (SMALL BLOCK) 1966 GTO (SPECIALTY CAR) W/389 (BIG BLOCK). LATER GTO'S GOT THE PONT 400, CONSIDERED BIG BLOCK BECAUSE OF THE CAR IT WAS IN... BY THE WAY THE MUSCLE CAR ERA WAS STARTED BY PONTIAC WITH THE GTO!

-OLDSMOBILES - ANOTHER EASY ONE '64,'65,'66, & '67 F85 OR CUTLASS' CAME WITH THE 330 (BASE MODEL ENGINE) 442'S CAME WITH THE 400 (BIG BLOCK). OTHER LARGE CUBE ENGINES WERE ALSO REFERED TO AS BIG BLOCKS AND WERE USED IN EXTREMELY SPECIAL CARS LIKE THE HURST OLDS. '68 & '69 H/O'S HAD 455'S....

BUICKS THE SAME THING... CADILLAC - I THINK THEY ONLY CAME WITH LARGE CUBE ENGINES, BUT THEN WHEN DID THEY START MAKING A SMALL OR MID SIZE CAR?

THE REST ARE ALL THE SAME - FORDS, CHRYSLERS, ANY MANUFACTURER THAT MADE A MIDSIZED CAR AND WANTED TO PUT A LARGER ENGINE IN IT.

IN THE MID 60'S THE GOVERNMENT WOULD ONLY ALLOW NO BIGGER THAN 400 CUBIC INCHES FOR THOSE SPECIALTY CARS, THAT'S WHY THE HURST OLDS (455) WERE SO SPECIAL, AND THOSE COULDN'T BE FULLY PRODUCED BY GM, THEY HAD TO BE FINISHED BY GEORGE HURST TO BE SOLD TO THE PUBLIC.

ANY QUESTIONS, SEND ME A MESSAGE, OR REPLY TO THIS POSTING.

AL
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Old 02-08-2006, 04:31 PM   #42
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

Well, for mopars it is pretty easy. A BB will only bolt up to a BB transmission. The bolt pattern is larger for the BB engines.
273,318,340, 360 are all small blocks, LA engines.
the 361,383,400,426,and 440's are BB, B and RB engines.
If you go way back, the 352,352,and 392's are all SB bolt patterns even though they have more CI then some of the BB engines, so CI still don't matter here.
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Old 02-10-2006, 12:44 PM   #43
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

Rocketpower,

I'm afraid it's YOU that is missing a clue or two.. The physical dimensions are what determine a "big block" from a "small block". There is NO SUCH THING as a "big block Pontiac". 287 through 455 all share the same deck height, bore spacing, rod length and rod journal, timing set, oil pump and driveshaft, head bolt pattern, valley cover (also known as a "pushrod cover"), distributor, camshaft, etc. The only variation on that are the 265/301 from the late '70s, and those blocks are mostly the same, except the MUCH shorter deck. Pontiac engines are broken up in "journal" sizes, not unlike small block Chevy (large journal, small journal), as the main journals and corresponding bearings vary from 2.65" to 3.25" in diameter, depending on year and displacement.

DRCE is STRICTLY an Oldsmobile "offering". They also originally produced the "Rocket Block", now being distributed by Dart. Pontiac Engineering DID produce their version of BBC (which is also what the original DRCE block is...). It's called "Big Chief", and is currently the dominant force in Pro Stock.

The 400 CID limit was in no way anything "government". It was internal GM policy. If it had been "government", there would have been no 428 or 429 Torinos and Fairlanes, no 440 GTXs or Chargers, no Hemi-ANYTHING short of Polara... The list goes on.
The Hurst Olds' were sent from the assembly plants to Hurst with either the "base" engine (400) or no engine, and had the 455s from the "big" Olds transplanted "aftermarket". Pontiac did the same thing with the Royal Bobcats, Chevy did it with the Yenkos.
You're right, though, before 1970, no engines larger that 400 CID were "allowed" to be factory-installed in GM intermediate cars. Same was true with the "F" and "X" bodies (Firebird/Camaro, Nova).

It must be stated here. All this attempting to redfine what something is or is not, based on hearsay and supposition, is similar to the arguement over what consitiutes a muscle car. You can argue 'till the cows come home. The definitions have been in "stone" since before most of us were either born, or at least in my case, before we got out of elemntary school. Arguing it will NOT change it. A "big block" will always be the larger of the engine choices (physical size) from a given maufacturer that offers(ed) more than one. A muscle car will always be an intermediate body with a "big car" engine.

Lastly, please turn off your caps. It sounds like you're hollering at everyone...!

Sub006,

You may have close-to-big block displacement, but there's one thing seriously lacking from the strokers to really make the claim of "big block power". It's true, one can easily extract well over 400, and even 500 HP from them, for a pump-gas streeter. We do it all the time. But they're lacking something important, that 396, 400P, 400 Olds, 440 Dodge, etc. ALL have. TORQUE! Small block strokers typically come up 50-100 lb. ft. shy of similar displacement big blocks. The BIGGEST reason is the rod length. Secondary reasons involve more complex issues, such as runnner length, port efficiency, etc.
What does this mean? Not a lot, but if you have a 3,600 lb. car, it will go significantly quicker with the 396 than it would the 400SB (at a similar level of "tune"). If it's a "mild" build, the 400P or 400 Olds would beat 'em both... (let the bantering begin!) (:-

Jim
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Old 02-11-2006, 04:18 PM   #44
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

just to add a little more flavor into this seeing as ive already become confused lets do a little more of it:
whats the difference between a small block, big block, and short and long blocks...(any other blocks i forgot?... add them in if i did)
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Old 02-12-2006, 11:59 AM   #45
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block

Short block vs long block has nothing to do with "size" -- it is a set of engine components.

A short block is typically (but not always) the internal engine components that reside in, and are connected to the engine block from the oil pan up, including the block itself -- crank, rods, pistons, oil pump, timing set, but not including the heads, intake manifold, and stuff above. Covers, like the oil pan and timing cover may or may not be included in a short block.

A long block is the short block plus -- heads and intake, and possibly everything else to just drop the engine into a car out of the box [crate] as-is -- this may even include the distributor, harnesses, hoses, and accessory pulleys, belts and mounts.

You would want a short block if you blew up your bottom end [spun bearing, threw rods, etc...], but your heads and everything else was still in good shape -- sometimes the cost of buying a pre-built short block is cheaper than the labor and parts to rebuild your existing one. It's also a good way to upgrade a bottom end to more displacement.
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