corolla ae86 vs 240sx

[kman10587]

Wow, I'm learning a lot. I always thought that the Mustangs and Camaros were about even in handling, but I guess not. I know Gran Turismo 3 is just a game, but in it, the Camaro SS actually handles really well as long as you take it easy on the brakes.

[nbw]

Thanks again for a detailed explenation I greatly appriciate them(they are quite rare to find sometimes..)
I may have to check out that issue(ammungst others that are on my list). I have only had it for a few months now...

[racer_in_black]

have you driven either of those cars? You can notice the response more on the corolla.

[Layla's Keeper]

I've driven a 1989 SOHC 240SX hatchback and a 1985 GT-S coupe. The coupe was numb on center, though wheel feedback improved as I pressed harder into the corner. The problem was as I was pressing the car was giving up more and more in the way of lateral grip to the point where I realized I'd have to point the car about two feet inwards of a corner's apex in order to make sure I clip the apex properly.

That's flawed handling.

The 240SX wasn't any better. Lots of plowing understeer that surprisingly could be cured by moderate trail-braking. Trail-braking is a damned FF technique. I shouldn't need to be pitching the car on its nose every time I run a corner to get it to rotate off the center. A good handling car will take a set in a corner and roll back evenly from the front to the back, smoothly without drama or difficulty. At most, a little countering at the exit to walk the car away from the apex is acceptable.

Here's another little clue that the beloved Hachi-roku is a sub-par handling machine. Next time to start throwing one through switchbacks, take a look at how often your wrists cross.. Any car that needs that much steering input mid corner is flawed.

[nbw]

How hard would it be to correct these built in problems in the 240? Are they just factory tunings to make the car safer or just flat out huge flaws that are a pain to correct(ie foxbody stang)?

[racer_in_black]

Here's something simple to answer. People that are actually looking for those type of cars, are they planning on keeping them stock?

[Layla's Keeper]

nbw, curing the 240SX really depends on what you're going to do with the car. A pure track 240SX can live with the high spring rates and stiff dampers that would potentially cure the problem, however, this equals a car that's very hard to read and is easily upset by berms, curbs, or mid-corner bumps (for evidence, consider the final corner at Sebring). For a more pure solution, many 240SX drivers in top level classes have gone to fully replacing the front suspension (as per SCCA GT3 and GT2 rules) with double wishbone or unequal length A-arm setups as part of a pure tube chassis.

Interestingly enough, these cars often have NASCAR style 3-link rear suspensions, but there's a whole different reasoning behind that.

[Wolfwood]

This is very interesting, seems the reputation of these cars is based more on the fact someone said they were "the best" and a bunch of other people adopted that point of view and then repeated it over and over. So many people have said it at this point, i certainly believed it!

I like the FC rx7 quite a bit, but im not sure it would be considered reliable at its age. And an older BMW may be affordable, but im not sure the maintainence/repair would be (at least in the US, where i live). I've also heard good things about the mazda miata, but that doesnt come in hard top, which is impractical for most of us. I would have inquired about the mazdaspeed protege and the integra type R, but sadly they are not in the price range.

Thank you everyone for your input. So, if the 240sx and corolla gts are not the best handling cars (in the class), which are? Do you have any other suggestions for cars with superior handling? Something with similar characteristics to the 240sx and corolla: practical (hard top), reasonably dependable, and inexpensive.

[Wolfwood]

One more thing i wanted to ask about: Does the S14 240 have the same suspension problems as the S13?

[kman10587]

Originally Posted by Wolfwood

This is very interesting, seems the reputation of these cars is based more on the fact someone said they were "the best" and a bunch of other people adopted that point of view and then repeated it over and over. So many people have said it at this point, i certainly believed it!

As much as I love Initial D, it spawns some of the worst fanboys. Just the mere notion that a Camaro outhandles an AE86 is blasphemy to some of these kids.

As far the best picks...

Originally Posted by Layla's Keeper

But, I stand by my assessment that the best choice for the money is a 3rd or 4th generation Camaro. These cars are absolutely dynamite on a road course and tuning the suspension is relatively simple compared to many others.

I'm in no position to disagree, but I believe that E36 BMW 3 Series are very good as well. The price is a bit higher though, and maintenance can be costly if the car wasn't cared for properly.

[nbw]

Originally Posted by Wolfwood

Thank you everyone for your input. So, if the 240sx and corolla gts are not the best handling cars (in the class), which are? Do you have any other suggestions for cars with superior handling? Something with similar characteristics to the 240sx and corolla: practical (hard top), reasonably dependable, and inexpensive.

http://ww2.scca.com/Solo.php
This years nationals results in SCCA soloII(ie autocross)
That can help give you a good idea on the food chain of sports cars.
SS, as, bs, cs, ds, es, fs ect ect are all stock classes. SS=SuperStock. this is where you will see cars like c5 corvettes, vipers, porsche 911's, fd rx7's and other high class rides. AS is a step down in the scale, c4 vettes, wrx's s2000's or blah blah blah and so on til you get to the last class with lesser sports cars
SM is street modifieds. The ultimate run what you brung class. SM2 is the same thing but with 2seat cars(or cars that are in SM but are just too lightweight IIRC).

[kman10587]

Haha, the Z06 wiped up everything in Super Stock.

[engineer]

layla's keeper, what do u think of the bmw e30 suspension? oh and what u said about crossing wrists in the corolla, isnt that why the circuit, gymkhana, drift and touge racers have the super long steering arms? and also what do u know about and think of the miatas suspension? thanks

[Layla's Keeper]

Well, let's tackle this one piece at a time.

#1 - BMW E30 chassis: The E30 is a chassis infamous for oversteer. The short trailing arms of BMW's patented "Z Axle" suspension made for some excellent if challenging handling characteristics. I've often heard E30 drivers compare the E30 to being "A little 911 with the engine in the wrong place." This suspension, though, was favorable enough that BMW kept it around long after the E30 gave way to the E36 by using it under the rear end of the Z3 and M Roadster.

Naturally, this is why M Roadsters have such a fierce reputation as being difficult to drive. All the power of an E36 M3 in an E30 suspension that just happens to have a shorter wheelbase and lighter curb weight.

#2 - longer AE86 steering arms: You hit it on the nose there. Longer control arms, along with re-geared racks and reconfigured spindles, are all common parts sold to hardcore AE86 racers to reduce the woefully large number of lock to lock turns in the stock steering. If I'm not mistaken, TRD sold a quality set for some years.

#3 - Miata suspension: The Miata's one true flaw is in its soft springing and weak-kneed dampers. Miatas have a history of rolling around, pitching themselves sideways in corners much like the bias-ply shod roadsters of yore (MGB, Lotus Elan, Triumph TR6, Fiat 124, and so on) that it is heavily influenced by. However, the Miata's hidden secret is that behind those 185/60-14's (Miatas also have painfully little tires stock) lies a wonderfully thought out double wishbone suspension front and rear. With a little of a drop, stiffer shocks, and wider tires, Miatas become dominant autocross cars. In fact, Miatas are one of the ubiquitous cars at autocross events nationwide. They really deserve to be the world's best selling sports car of all time. The MGB's record couldn't have been surpassed by a finer car.

[nbw]

I'd love to own a miata... I just cant do convertables around here with SUV's being the vehicle of choice by... everyone. lol

I hate to keep bothering you Layla's Keeper with random car suspension questions but do you have any thoughts, tips or opinions about 2nd gen(FC) rx7's?