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Old 01-05-2010, 05:09 PM   #31
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Re: Are cushy cars boring?

I'm hoping that by the time I buy a new car Ford comes out with some diesel cars here. Would be very interested in a TDI Taurus.

And the mileage on my car is thanks to the standard 2.73 rear end gears. The police interceptors have 3.27 or 3.55s which are nice to get going quickly, but gets quite bit lower mileage.
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Old 01-05-2010, 05:25 PM   #32
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Re: Are cushy cars boring?

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Originally Posted by akboss View Post
I think you were contradicting my opinion that 'no replacement for displacement' is BS. I should clarify. If you have an engine and you make it bigger, it will make more power, no doubt. But there are many, many ways to make an engine perform better, and only one of which is larger displacement.
nonono, not contradict....
That's why I specifically talked about a situation where an engine is at its peak in terms of design and opened with "not entirely true".
The short of it is that these days, there is a replacement for displacement (it's called forced induction...) but you can't deny/ignore that a bigger engine has benefits.

Incidentally, since you mentioned pollution, one thing Honda vtec engines are good at as a by-product of their high power output per litre is that they tend to be much cleaner than most other similar engines.
As an example (because I remember it) the old 1998 Honda Accord Type-R's engine was so efficient in it's fuel burning that it was compliant with 2002 Euro emmisions standards.
Admittedly it isn't actually that hot at about 230g/kg but it was still much better than nearly any other 4 cylinder in production at the time.

Also, some numbers for you.
2.2L
207bhp
0-60: 6.9
31mpg urban
36.2mpg extra urban
29.4mpg combined.

Not the highest output 4 cylinder Type-R VTEC but this is supposed to be a family saloon after all.
While we're also talking diesels, the Accord 2.2L diesel is possibly one of the finest 4 cylinder diesel engines in production being both ultra refined (for a diesel) and stupidly clean at 153g/kg (or there-abouts).
Yes, that's better than the old 1998 VTEC engine.
It isn't a sports car but then no sports car I know has these numbers
42.2mpg urban
61.4mpg extra urban
52.3mpg combined.

You also asked about the Ford Focus.
It's a harder ride than you'd think but at the same time, it isn't affected by it.
What I mean is, while you are aware of bumps and ruts, you're never fighting it (or the wheel because of it). Car nerds will tell you that's because of the decent amount of lateral bump soak that the fancy schmancy "Control Blade" (Fordspeak for their 5 point multi-link/trailing arm rear) suspension has.
If you've ever read in a magazine about a car's steering constantly talking to you, this is it.
You can feel the car has gone over something as the steering wheel does twitch but it rights itself right away so you're not having to correct it.
Great car to throw around.
Body control is superb.
Lean is gradual and understeer can be corrected with a little lift and it doesn't dive hard under heavy braking but at the same time, it isn't as if the car is overly stiff.
Definitely a car to test drive with an understanding sales-rep.
Not driven any of the faster ones though or the newer ones either, just an old ST170.
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Old 01-05-2010, 07:50 PM   #33
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Re: Are cushy cars boring?

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so why are the times for the posts 06:32 PM and 07:19 PM?
I went to make the post but when I unlocked my ipod after that class ended it hadn't posted yet do I hit post again, only to learn it had actually made the post :P
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Old 01-05-2010, 08:09 PM   #34
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Re: Are cushy cars boring?

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Originally Posted by akboss View Post
OK, I'm tired of defending this because I know I'm right. Let the numbers talk.
City/Hwy, 2005 model cars:

2005 Buick LeSabre V6 - 20/29 vs 2005 Honda Accord 4 cyl. - 26/34
2005 Chrysler 300 V6 - 19/27 vs 2005 Nissan Altima 4 cyl. - 24/31
2005 Ford Five Hundred V6 - 21/29 vs 2005 Toyota Camry 4 cyl. - 24/33

So looking at this 'data', the average is about 5 mpg better city, 4 mpg better highway. Per year I drive about 17,000 miles, so saving 5 mpg means about $900/year in my pocket, plus less pollution in the air. This is why I want a comfy car with four cylinders. It makes sense - who needs a V6 or V8 for most of their driving anyways? I mean, sure, if it's a weekend backroad bomber then absolutely, but for a daily driver (if you drive a lot) it just doesn't make economic sense...

That's why I'm jealous of European cars - you guys get all the models we do but with more appropriate motors. Just now we are starting to get some TDI's, but they're all German and expensive.
well I'll pick the middle one to dig into,

Chrysler 300 V6-
21-28mpg
3,700lb curb weight

Nissan Altima 4 cyl.
24-31mpg
3,000lb curb weight

a better comparison for the Altima would've been something like a V6 impala
21-32mpg
3,465lb curb weight.

even though the Impala weighs a considerable about more and has more horsepower it gets better mileage with its V6
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Old 01-05-2010, 11:14 PM   #35
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Re: Are cushy cars boring?

Actually highway EPA for the 2010 CRV 2WD is 28. Given that it weighs just over 3300 Lbs, has a 5 speed OD tranny (turns about 2100 RPM at 70), and its streamlining isn't that bad, I expected more fuel economy than I'm seeing. The last Honda Accord I owned was a new 91 model - a 4 cylinder w/5 speed manual. It never managed to get 30 MPG on trips. The Jag's best to date was on a business trip up into Ohio. With Ohio's lower speed limits, she averaged 32.5 for the trip.

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Old 01-06-2010, 08:27 AM   #36
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Re: Are cushy cars boring?

Re: Shpuker,

A lot of extra weight comes with a bigger motor and heavier components to deal with the added torque. And when comparing the Impala V6 to the Altima 4-cyl (which uses a fairly large 2500cc unit) you say the Impala gets better mileage - how do you arrive at this? You mean the highway mileage being 1 mpg better, because if you're referring to the city the Altima still handily out-miles the Impala by a hefty 3 mpg. So if we were proper nerdy mathematicians here, we would combine the numbers and divide to arrive at averages, in which the Altima would still be ahead, even with the biggest 4-cylinder of the group. And as far as the weight, well, that only better explains the proper engineering of the Altima, there's no need for a family sedan to weigh nearly two tons...
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Old 01-06-2010, 08:50 AM   #37
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Re: Are cushy cars boring?

Re: DrunkenMonkey,

You're in England, no? You chaps on that side of the Ocean get a much better Focus than we do, at least for dynamics. I believe the Focus we get in North America is tuned for a cushier, lazier ride, which in this case appeals to me, but it is better suited to our long stretches of open road. While not as 'pretty' as the European car, the 2009 model isn't bad, and on the used market it's a heck of a bargain.

I can't speak on Honda diesels, we don't get any. And the Honda/Acura brand is all mixed up over there, where the cars we drive are labeled an Acura are called Honda's in Europe.

Your CO2 measurement is cool, the g/km rating. I think eventually we will hop on the bandwagon as fuel efficiency becomes more of a concern, but for now we just rate mileage. It all boils down to money here, to hell with the air quality.

But unless I'm mistaken, your congestion tax in London is pretty stupid as well. A V8 twin-turbo BMW 7-series 'hybrid' or Lexus SUV that struggle to get 20 mpg is exempt because of their hybrid status, whereas a 50 mpg gas car like a Mini Cooper must pay because it is not a hybrid...is that correct? Craziness.
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Old 01-06-2010, 12:05 PM   #38
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Re: Are cushy cars boring?

couple of things just came to mind

i) we have a different gallon to you guys so the numbers I give are to Imperial Gallon which is about 1.2 of your gallons so any of my mpg figures will have to be multiplied by 1.2 to get it to your mpg.

ii) in the UK we hardly ever pay attention to the individual urban/extra urban rating for mpg, instead taking the combined cycle rating (not the average of the two) as the "typical".

with respect to the V6 Impala vs Nissan Altima, their combined mpg ratings are approx. 27mpg vs 31mpg.

iii) congestion charge.
vehicles that are exempt:

Alternative fuel vehicles (includes duel fuel/hybrids)
Electrically propelled vehicles
Vehicles with nine or more seats (i.e a minibus)
Motor tricycles
Roadside recovery vehicles

so yup but bear in mind that mpg isn't the primary concern whereas emmisions is.
We also have a co2 based taxing system on cars as well.
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Old 01-06-2010, 12:18 PM   #39
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Re: Are cushy cars boring?

Well, I'm from Canada so we use Litres, our maths are going to be way off! Since we use Metric (like the rest of the entire world other than the United States), our fuel economy is measured by litres per 100 Kilometres.

What do you think of the C02 based taxing system? Personally I think its a great idea but it could get complicated, especially if it applies to used cars. For example, people with lesser means usually buy older vehicles which generally use more gas. So if you can't afford a new car, I don't think you should be penalized for having to buy used. Assuming it only applies to new cars, it benefits in several ways by making cars more affordable at the entry level (economy cars), and if you want to cause more pollution buy buying an excessive vehicle, you pay your contributions to help offset it's CO2 production. This system still allows for exotic vehicles, you just have to be willing to pay to offset their impact. Is that about right?
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Old 01-06-2010, 12:54 PM   #40
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Re: Are cushy cars boring?

It does only apply to new cars so older cars are still tax based on engine capacity.

In any case, taking all things into account, I still don't see why everyone don't just buy Lotus Elises.
Basic Lotus Elise S
1.8L
134 bhp
121 lb/ft
26.6 mpg urban
48.7 extra urban
37 mpg on the combined cycle
179 g/km
5.7 0-60
tops at 127ish mph

what more do you want/need?
apart from a working hip at 65...
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Old 01-06-2010, 02:04 PM   #41
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Re: Are cushy cars boring?

Hmm. Well, it would be a fun toy!
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Old 01-06-2010, 11:52 PM   #42
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Re: Are cushy cars boring?

So we're using 3 different measurements, in 3 different countries.

I agree, everyone buy a Lotus! OR YOU DIE!
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