91 Regency Elite died coming down the mountain

[mpatton312]

So, I was coming down a mountain pass last weekend. During the last hill before hitting the highway, traffic slowed up, A LOT, so I through it in neutral and just coasted whenever we actually moved (I've had this car since 2009, and I've coasted in neutral many times). About 10 minutes later, it just died. I was still stuck on the hill in traffic, so I tried to start it up a few times. It cranked but wouldn't start. So I made it down the hill and rolled right into a parking lot. Checked codes and had a 13 (02 Sensor) and 31 (Park/Neutral Position Switch), then it blinked 6 times straight, which I've never seen before, before starting over.

I cranked it a few times and it was cranking but wouldn't turn over. A few times, it started and died pretty quickly. I checked a couple plugs and they were sparking. The car actually started instantly when I pulled the first plug and turned it over. It only lasted a short time, but it was definitely arcing to the engine. I had it running a few times, so I decided to check codes again. All I got was a 41. Figured cam sensor. I'm up on a mountain, so I called AAA and got hauled back to Denver.

Got the cam sensor and switched out the old one. While in the process of cleaning the area out a little bit, just rubbing crap off with a rag because I replaced the power steering pump about a month ago because it was leaking at the pulley shaft and throwing fluid everywhere, I discovered that all 3 wires for the plug going into the camshaft sensor were bare (check out the pic). So I taped them up, and hoped for the best. I got the worst. Still nothing. No spark out of the coil.

Switched out the ICM. Same shit.

So I check a few fuses and there's only one row of fuses lighting up under the dash and none under the hood. Which leads me to an inquiry. Are the only fuse locations under the dash near the brake pedal and the 2 maxi-fuse boxes under the hood? Or is there one hiding that I don't know about? Anyway, so now it seems most of the car isn't getting power. I was quickly reminded about how I pulled the plastic panels under the dash off a couple weeks ago to investigate a fun little game my car has decided to play on me called "Only the passenger side defrost and upper level ducts are going to blow hot air", which is pretty fun when driving into the mountains in the middle of the winter to ski is a main hobby. In cramming everything back under the panel on the driver side, I figured I may have done something. There's an auto-start system that's been on this car since like 1995 which is what's under that panel. So I pulled that off and started poking around. Lots of wires and the auto-start box. I noticed one orange wire that was cut and was actually two white wires inside one orange case. One end was cut flush and I assumed it has been that way for a long time. The other end had a resistor soldered between the two ends of the white wires. I assume this was done as part of the auto-start system. Anyway, you can kind of see in the picture that one of the white wires was accidentally sliced about an inch from the end of where the orange case was cut off. I cut it open and removed both ends and have alligator clipped them together (not pictured), and still have no spark and most fuses have no power. I will say that I had a weak ground when I first checked the maxi-fuses under the hood, and haven't checked them again yet, but the fuses under the dash on the drivers side only have power going to the middle row which I believe was all accessory type stuff.

I'm losing ideas quickly at this point. I'm going to investigate the taped camshaft sensor plug wires, physically inspect every fuse, splice the cut white wire, try to trace power wires from the battery to different fuse locations, and anything else that comes to mind in the morning.

Sorry for being long-winded, but it's been and long and trying week. The only upside is I live 2 blocks from a bus that takes me directly to work.

If anyone has any ideas on stuff to check, I would greatly appreciate anything at this point. The car runs great mechanically besides a slightly hard shift out of first, and I'd hated to have to can it because of some damn electrical problem.

[Tech II]

As with all vehicles, you do the basics.....

You check for codes......

You check fuel pressure......also pull the vac line to the fuel pressure regulator, and check for the presence of fuel(leaking diaphragm)....

You check for spark, on ALL cylinders.....

You check for injector pulse with a noid light on ALL injectors......

Try starting the vehicle, by spraying carb cleaner into the throttle body(ambient temp should be 40 or above)....if it starts and runs as long as you spray(stops when you stop spraying), then you have a fuel delivery problem, either pressure is too low(should be around 40psi), or the injectors are not firing.....

Another thing to try, is disconnect the MAF sensor, and see if the vehicle will start and run.....

I'm not sure what you mean about fuses without power....which ones? Are all the Maxi fuses getting power with the key on? Or, is it a bunch on fuses in the fuse panel under the dash.....chances are if it's the fuse panel, you could have a bad leg from the ignition switch......another thing to check, sometimes there is a small ground wire that is grounded near the batter, and can have a bad connection(corroded).....

Another problem with these vehicles, is the ECM, or computer......they were known as the red, white, and blue ecm's, because those were the colors of the connectors to the ecm....but this should only be changed if all the other things I mentioned have been checked out/fixed......

[mpatton312]

Thanks for the input.

I haven't had any codes appear, but also have not been able to get the car to turn over since having it towed down to Denver.

I should have noted that the fuel system has been checked and is not the problem as far as fuel delivery is concerned. There is plenty of pressure.

I was lazy and only checked spark on the 3 plugs on the engine side of the coils. When it first died, there was a spark on all three at the coil pack. Now there is nothing.

I don't believe it is an injector problem.

You spray carb cleaner into the throttle of a non-carburated car?

Loose/broken wires are high on my list of things to try to find after finding the bare wires on the sensor plug and sliced power wire under the dash, so I will look for broken grounds near the battery.

I'm about to eat and go check the fuses and poke around a little, so I will update after that.

[mpatton312]

Ok so my test light is a little crappy, and I do know a lot about cars but can also be a dumbass sometimes.

This is one of those times. I never had the key turned on while checking the fuses with the test light. All of the maxi-fuses under the hood and almost all of the fuses under the dash on the driver's side light up on both terminals. I'm still not sure if there's another fuse box hidden somewhere.

Anyway, the fuses that don't light up are 1, 9, 10, 21, 22, and 23.

9, 10, 22, and 23 are spares.

21 says IP Light (What lights would those be? I think all my lights are working.)

1 is Crank Signal-SIR

I assume the crank signal is somewhat important to the firing of the engine. The fuse is not blown. I've never been this far down an electrical problem. There are still no 2 digit codes appearing and no spark at the coils.

[mpatton312]

The #1 fuse lights up while cranking the engine.

I pulled the main relay and the middle female connection on the relay plug is pretty discolored (potentially fried?)

I'm kind of in the mindset that the bare camshaft sensor wires shorted a line of the electrical system, but I have no clue how to trace it, or fix it.

Is replacing the crankshaft sensor in my near future?

[maxwedge]

If you put scanner on it and look for cranking rpms, this will point you in the right direction if none, it will still start with a bad cam sensor. A shotrted injector can cause no start also, check inj. Resistance about 12 ohms.

[Tech II]

Well, as it stands right now, you have no spark, on any cylinder?

If you have a single coil, with 6 terminals, that is known as a Magnavox coil......they have a history of breaking down, but it is usually a "pair" that is the problem, not all 6......

So, if you have no spark at all, it comes down to the crank sensor, the ICM, or the coil pack, or the harness between the Crank sensor and ICM(you had a problem with the harness at the cam sensor), or the harness from the ICM to the ECM..........if this is the case, I would remove the ignition wires(make sure they are labelled, so they go back correctly)..... now remove the coil(torx screws).....when you flip it over, you will find one side of coils with a common wire(usually power), and the other side of coils each has an individual wire(control wire from the ICM to create spark)......disconnect the wires from the bottom of the coil pack(make a note of how they will go back on)....what you want to do, is attach your test light to the common wire.....attach the other end of the test light to one of the three individual wires....now crank the vehicle....the light should flash.....try another wire.....it should flash...now try the third wire.....it should flash......If all three flash, bad Magnavox coil......if only one or two flash.......bad ICM.......if none flash, then it's either a bad ICM or crank sensor.....

One more possibility, is a bad harness connection at the ICM........have seen techs go in there and not using the proper test leads, force the female connectors open a little .....over time, vibration takes it's course and you end up with a bad connection....only way to test these connections, is with the appropriate male connector, and you insert it into each female harness connector, and then pull it out....should "feel" the same "drag" from each female connector....if loose, the connector should be replaced....

[mpatton312]

Thanks for the input. I don't have a sensor to check the cranking rpms.

I'll have to go get a multi-meter to check the injector resistance.

I've checked the tape on the wires on the cam sensor plug, and it still seems to be in place, so that short/open circuit problem should be gone. The camshaft sensor, itself, is brand new.

I have no spark to the three plugs on the engine side of the coil, and yes, it is a single coil. I used to have a '92 Bonneville which had the 3 separate coils, so I was thinking the same thing about the pair going down, but maybe this thing got fried when the sensor wires were crossed.

So, you're saying to check if the coil pack is functioning, remove the plugs from the top, then separate the coil pack and ICM (I replaced the ICM in hopes of miracles, didn't work.), then disconnect all six wires between the coil pack and ICM, then clip the test light between each connection one at a time, and crank the engine? Isn't there a giant charge going through there, or is that produced in the coil pack?

There's a new development where I don't think I'm hearing the fuel pump engage every time I switch the key on. I've released the valve under the hood and it sprays for a split second and then is done. This would kind of lead me to believe the crankshaft sensor needs to be replaced, instead of the coil pack being shot, since I believe that that sensor could prevent the fuel pump from turning on. Is that true?

[maxwedge]

Crank sensor does no affect fuel pump prime,, if the crank sensor was bad you would also have in injector pulse, checked with a noid lite, 15$ kit.

[Tech II]

yes, remove the coil completely.......attach one side of the test light to the one wire that has 3 connectors on it ......the other end of the test light, probe one of the other 3 wires....crank the vehicle....should flash....then the next one....and then the next one.......this is not high voltage, this is only 12 volts being cycled on and off.....

As I said, if all three legs flash, then you need a new coil.....if only one or two flash, you need a new ICM....if none flash, then you need an ICM or a crank sensor......or it could be the wiring in between the crank sensor and the ICM....

Max stated:

"Crank sensor does no affect fuel pump prime,, if the crank sensor was bad you would also have in injector pulse, checked with a noid lite, 15$ kit."

I think he meant to say you no injector pulse....and he is right, the crank sensor does not affect fuel pump prime....

[mpatton312]

Thanks guys. I haven't tested the injectors. I believe the coil pack (none of the connections lit up the test light) and ICM (brand new) are fine. Disregard what I said about the fuel pump. It is turning on although not a lot of pressure builds up. I checked the power wire at the ICM harness and it lit up bright, so it's getting power. I didn't notice any problems with the crankshaft sensor wires, so I'm down to thinking it is the crankshaft sensor. I'm also tired of dealing with it, so I'm calling some shops tomorrow to see what it might cost to have it replaced.

[maxwedge]

Originally Posted by Tech II

yes, remove the coil completely.......attach one side of the test light to the one wire that has 3 connectors on it ......the other end of the test light, probe one of the other 3 wires....crank the vehicle....should flash....then the next one....and then the next one.......this is not high voltage, this is only 12 volts being cycled on and off.....

As I said, if all three legs flash, then you need a new coil.....if only one or two flash, you need a new ICM....if none flash, then you need an ICM or a crank sensor......or it could be the wiring in between the crank sensor and the ICM....

Max stated:

"Crank sensor does no affect fuel pump prime,, if the crank sensor was bad you would also have in injector pulse, checked with a noid lite, 15$ kit."

I think he meant to say you no injector pulse....and he is right, the crank sensor does not affect fuel pump prime....

Correct, I am using Nook and it is torture to type on! Lol

[mpatton312]

It was the crank shaft sensor. There were also some bare wires going into that plug just like the cam shaft sensor. My mechanic didn't notice it at first. They drove the car around before I picked it up. I started it 5 times before I drove off their lot, then drove around for about 15 minutes. Next morning it wouldn't start again. Same no spark condition. Towed it back there and they found the bare wires and pigtailed a new sensor plug. Thing runs better than it has in years now. Just wanted to give you guys some closure (I know you were looking for it) and say thanks for your insightful assistance over these interwebs.

[Tech II]

We always appreciate when the original poster, replies with a fix.....too many times, the original poster never replies if any of our suggestions has worked....by replying, you may have helped others with a similar problem....thank you.....

[mpatton312]

Here's a fun update. I went skiing again this weekend. It bombed it uphill towards the Eisenhower Tunnel, then died a couple hundred feet from the end of the tunnel. I knew instantly it was the same/similar problem. My dad (who used to own and drive this car) told me that it had died on him a few times and he never did anything besides messing with/jiggling the wires into the crankshaft sensor. So I tossed all my ski gear on, jacked the fucker up, crawled under it on the snow and ice, and pulled the wires about an inch out from wherever they go. It started right up and got me all the way home and started perfectly fine this morning. Just something to keep in mind if you guys are trying to help other people in the future. I'm fairly certain there are still some bare wires leading into the crankshaft sensor further back that what the mechanic shop already spliced. I'm not even sure either sensor was actually bad at this point, just the wires are losing their coating and either shorting or grounding.