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Old 12-14-2011, 06:02 PM   #1
GoGoPower
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Trying to get an engine unstuck

Hi, I have a 1963 Dodge 880 (361 V8 with Torqueflight 727 push-button automatic transmission) that's been sitting for about 3 years and the engine now appears to be stuck. I've been trying to turn the flywheel manually with a breaker bar but it won't budge.

I drained the oil 3 days ago (and there was quite a bit of water that came out along with it) and filled it back up with 3 quarts of automatic transmission fluid and 1 quart of brake fluid. Tried turning it with the breaker bar again today with no luck, so I decided to be more aggressive and added 2 quarts of ammonia in with the trans and brake fluid, and took the spark plugs out and poured 2 ounces of Marvel Mystery Oil down all of the holes. I also took the valve covers off and all of the valves looked good.

I'm not a mechanic and have never dealt with a stuck engine before so I really don't know what I'm doing. Am I on the right track here (I got the trans/brake/ammonia/Marvel combo idea from a forum thread I found through a Google search)? How long should it take for the trans/brake/ammonia to start to loosen it up? I'm pretty sure it's the engine that's the problem here but I guess it could be the transmission (I know the driveshaft is good). I'm getting a little frustrated with the lack of progress made so far and I'm thinking of just towing it up to the top of a hill and trying to push start it but I'm thinking that would probably do more harm than good. Is there anything else I should do to try to get it loosened up?

Any help on this would be very appreciated. Thanks in advance.
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Old 12-14-2011, 06:25 PM   #2
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Re: Trying to get an engine unstuck

I assume you've checked it is in neutral?


Quote:
Originally Posted by GoGoPower View Post
I drained the oil 3 days ago (and there was quite a bit of water that came out along with it)


If it's been sitting for 3 years with water in the oil, then no amount of corrosive chemicals and hydraulic fluids will do anything.
Chances are there is some serious rust on the cylinder walls and big and small bearings.


Pushing it down the hill won't help much either, unless there is a cliff at the bottom.
An automatic gearbox won't spin the engine when in gear



If you can't turn it easily using the nut on the front pully and large spanner or socket, then you need to think about removing the oil pan, or one of the cylinder heads.
What you find might not be pretty.

If you can get under the car, and there are not cross members in the way, dropping the oil pan would be easiest.
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Old 12-14-2011, 06:56 PM   #3
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Re: Trying to get an engine unstuck

Thanks for the reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moppie View Post
I assume you've checked it is in neutral?
D'oh, I did have it in neutral the first few times I tried turning it, but I'm pretty sure it was left in drive when I tried today...

Quote:
If it's been sitting for 3 years with water in the oil, then no amount of corrosive chemicals and hydraulic fluids will do anything.
Chances are there is some serious rust on the cylinder walls and big and small bearings.
The engine turned fine about a year ago when I tried it. I think the water probably got in there after that as I removed the hood for a few months to get it fixed and I guess the tarp I used to cover it wasn't good enough. Not sure if that changes anything.

Quote:
Pushing it down the hill won't help much either, unless there is a cliff at the bottom.
An automatic gearbox won't spin the engine when in gear
Actually the automatic Torqueflight can be push started, I've done it before. I was half-joking about that though and would probably only try it as a last resort.

Quote:
If you can't turn it easily using the nut on the front pully and large spanner or socket, then you need to think about removing the oil pan, or one of the cylinder heads.
What you find might not be pretty.

If you can get under the car, and there are not cross members in the way, dropping the oil pan would be easiest.
Thanks for idea, I'll try that tomorrow if it still won't turn when in neutral.
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Old 12-14-2011, 07:14 PM   #4
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Re: Trying to get an engine unstuck

1 and 1/4 inch socket, let the Marvel oil stay in a couple of days, being in drive has no affect on turning the engine on a TF, as there is no oil pressure to engage the clutch pak. Try and turn the engine both ways also, although if it really seized you may loosen the balancer bolt but is on there pretty tight.
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Old 12-14-2011, 09:26 PM   #5
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Re: Trying to get an engine unstuck

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Originally Posted by maxwedge View Post
1 and 1/4 inch socket, let the Marvel oil stay in a couple of days, being in drive has no affect on turning the engine on a TF, as there is no oil pressure to engage the clutch pak. Try and turn the engine both ways also, although if it really seized you may loosen the balancer bolt but is on there pretty tight.
Good advice.
Carefully jiggling the crank back and forth gently is much better than using a huge force in one direction, because its less likely to bend a connector rod and/or break piston rings.

I would suggest after a week of soaking, if it still does not budge, its time to whip off the heads and see whats going on.

BTW some of the very early automatic transmissions had rear pumps, attached to the driveshaft, and could be push-started. However, by the early 60's, this design feature (as I recall ) had been largely eliminated.
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Old 12-15-2011, 01:52 AM   #6
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Re: Trying to get an engine unstuck

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoGoPower View Post
The engine turned fine about a year ago when I tried it. I think the water probably got in there after that as I removed the hood for a few months to get it fixed and I guess the tarp I used to cover it wasn't good enough. Not sure if that changes anything.
I've seen an engine rust solid after only a month.
Water got into the cylinder and rusted the piston onto the liner destroying both.

Can you see any signs of moisture inside the carb?
That's the only place I think of moisture getting into the engine, unless you had the rocker covers off.


Quote:
Actually the automatic Torqueflight can be push started, I've done it before. I was half-joking about that though and would probably only try it as a last resort.

That is a very cool feature, something missing from modern cars.
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Old 12-15-2011, 04:42 AM   #7
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Re: Trying to get an engine unstuck

The early 727 T/Flite had a rear pump. Pushed to 15 mph and punched into 2nd would usually get 'er going.
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Old 12-15-2011, 08:50 AM   #8
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Re: Trying to get an engine unstuck

Correct on the rear pump all early torqueflites, cast iron and aluminum had this feature til the o/d units were introduced. My pictured race car had it removed as well as park, for racing purposes of course.
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Old 12-16-2011, 02:45 PM   #9
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Re: Trying to get an engine unstuck

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moppie View Post
I've seen an engine rust solid after only a month.
Water got into the cylinder and rusted the piston onto the liner destroying both.

Can you see any signs of moisture inside the carb?
That's the only place I think of moisture getting into the engine, unless you had the rocker covers off.
Not sure what to look for in terms of signs of moisture in the carb. The air filter housing was wet inside when I took it off but I don't remember the carb being wet. The chokeplate was stuck shut though and I had to knock it loose with a screwdriver. There is some white powdery residue around the inside the carb.

Anyway, I just tried turning again manually. Still won't move at all. When I try turning it the other way it just loosens the nut Tried knocking the flywheel lightly with a hammer to see if that might help loosen it up but it didn't seem to help at all.

So, I think the next thing I'm going to do is buy some rust remover (industrial strength if they have it) at Autozone and try soaking it in that. Anyone have any recommended brands (not sure if Autozone carries it, but Rust-Solve sounds pretty good)? I'll remove the oil pan and see what it looks like first, but I'm pretty sure rust is what I'm probably dealing with here.
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Old 12-16-2011, 03:50 PM   #10
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Re: Trying to get an engine unstuck

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoGoPower View Post
Not sure what to look for in terms of signs of moisture in the carb. The air filter housing was wet inside when I took it off but I don't remember the carb being wet. The chokeplate was stuck shut though and I had to knock it loose with a screwdriver. There is some white powdery residue around the inside the carb.

Anyway, I just tried turning again manually. Still won't move at all. When I try turning it the other way it just loosens the nut Tried knocking the flywheel lightly with a hammer to see if that might help loosen it up but it didn't seem to help at all.

So, I think the next thing I'm going to do is buy some rust remover (industrial strength if they have it) at Autozone and try soaking it in that. Anyone have any recommended brands (not sure if Autozone carries it, but Rust-Solve sounds pretty good)? I'll remove the oil pan and see what it looks like first, but I'm pretty sure rust is what I'm probably dealing with here.


Sounds like water got in through the carb, into the intake and into the cylinders?
Would it's design allow that and make it sound plausible?


If so, next step would be take off the inlet manifold and remove a head.
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Old 12-16-2011, 09:39 PM   #11
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Re: Trying to get an engine unstuck

PB Blaster is pretty darn good to squirt into the cylinders. Let it soak overnight and try turning again tomorrow. But first with all the spark plugs removed blow some compressed air into each cylinder through the spark plug holes to see if any and how much water and crap comes out of each cylinder. Sounds like you probably do have water sitting on top of one or more pistons. You'll probably wind up pulling the heads but on that engine its a piece of cake! You said alot of water came out the oil pan drain? The water should have settled to the bottom and came out first but if it was mega water, like a coupla gallons or if the oil was milky then you're gonna have to pull the pan to check the crankshaft, rod and main bearings also.
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Old 12-18-2011, 07:59 PM   #12
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Re: Trying to get an engine unstuck

Do you really love this car? If so, press on. If not, call Pick-A-Part.
The odds don't bode well for you. A bit of water in any of the cylinders will cause rust and pitting of the cylinder walls.

The rings will also rust to the walls, as they are cast iron. The attempts to free a rust-seized engine usually result in a broken top ring or two. If you should happen to get this thing to turn over, and you do get it to start, it will most likely eat itself alive. The fact that you had some water in the oil is a discouraging sign. If the valve covers were in place, then the water access was probably thru the carb, down the intake manifold to a cylinder that had an open intake valve, then the excess water slowly seeped past the rings and dribbled into the crankcase/oilpan.

The mystery oil is a good start. allow PLENTY of it to soak for a couple weeks. Just ignore it. (diesel works too) Pull the torus cover off the front of the trans to expose the starter ring on the flex plate. You can usually find a lug or a chunk of casting to rest the edge of a short prybar against. The bar should engage one of the teeth on the starter ring. carefully apply some pressure to the bar. It might move. don't keep grabbing teeth and moving it in the same direction. move to the other side and engage the ring again, this time moving in the opposite direction. just go a little bit, then go back the other way. eventually, you will get the engine to make a complete revolution. If you still have a witches brew in the crankcase, drain it and refill with clean oil before you go to the next step.
Now, you should be able to crank it with all the plugs out, and let the starter motor finish the loosening-up. don't be stingy with the MMO or diesel. It still needs a lot of lube up there to avoid destroying everything.
you are probably going to HAVE to pull the engine apart to restore it to running capacity. the cylinders most likely will need a bore to clean up the rust pits, and the pistons and rings will have to be replaced to match the new bore.
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Old 12-20-2011, 02:28 AM   #13
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Re: Trying to get an engine unstuck

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moppie View Post
Sounds like water got in through the carb, into the intake and into the cylinders?
Would it's design allow that and make it sound plausible?

If so, next step would be take off the inlet manifold and remove a head.
Yeah, that sounds like the most likely scenario. I don't see any other way the water would have gotten in there.

I started removing the heads yesterday but ran out of daylight. I'll get back to it tomorrow morning and post some pictures of what I find.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaP View Post
PB Blaster is pretty darn good to squirt into the cylinders. Let it soak overnight and try turning again tomorrow. But first with all the spark plugs removed blow some compressed air into each cylinder through the spark plug holes to see if any and how much water and crap comes out of each cylinder. Sounds like you probably do have water sitting on top of one or more pistons. You'll probably wind up pulling the heads but on that engine its a piece of cake! You said alot of water came out the oil pan drain? The water should have settled to the bottom and came out first but if it was mega water, like a coupla gallons or if the oil was milky then you're gonna have to pull the pan to check the crankshaft, rod and main bearings also.
Thanks for the recommendation, I bought a can of PBlaster but spraying it down the spark plug holes and soaking overnight didn't seem to help much. I'm pulling the heads now to get a better idea of what I'm dealing with.

There wasn't anywhere near gallons of water when I drained the oil - It came out pretty fast but I would say it was about a bottle of beer's worth at most, with about the same amount of oil. The majority of the water came out first and it looked like there was a little water that came out after the oil too. It's a 5.9 litre engine, all of the fluids drained out in about 15-20 seconds and from looking at size of the oil pan from the outside I'd say that all of the oil and water that came out was probably sitting in there and not in the crankcase. The oil didn't appear to be milky, just looked like regular oil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djblancett View Post
Do you really love this car? If so, press on. If not, call Pick-A-Part.
The odds don't bode well for you. A bit of water in any of the cylinders will cause rust and pitting of the cylinder walls.

The rings will also rust to the walls, as they are cast iron. The attempts to free a rust-seized engine usually result in a broken top ring or two. If you should happen to get this thing to turn over, and you do get it to start, it will most likely eat itself alive. The fact that you had some water in the oil is a discouraging sign. If the valve covers were in place, then the water access was probably thru the carb, down the intake manifold to a cylinder that had an open intake valve, then the excess water slowly seeped past the rings and dribbled into the crankcase/oilpan.

The mystery oil is a good start. allow PLENTY of it to soak for a couple weeks. Just ignore it. (diesel works too) Pull the torus cover off the front of the trans to expose the starter ring on the flex plate. You can usually find a lug or a chunk of casting to rest the edge of a short prybar against. The bar should engage one of the teeth on the starter ring. carefully apply some pressure to the bar. It might move. don't keep grabbing teeth and moving it in the same direction. move to the other side and engage the ring again, this time moving in the opposite direction. just go a little bit, then go back the other way. eventually, you will get the engine to make a complete revolution. If you still have a witches brew in the crankcase, drain it and refill with clean oil before you go to the next step.
Now, you should be able to crank it with all the plugs out, and let the starter motor finish the loosening-up. don't be stingy with the MMO or diesel. It still needs a lot of lube up there to avoid destroying everything.
you are probably going to HAVE to pull the engine apart to restore it to running capacity. the cylinders most likely will need a bore to clean up the rust pits, and the pistons and rings will have to be replaced to match the new bore.
Thanks for the reply/advice.

Yes, I really do love the car, I bought it five years ago as my first car and it has a lot of sentimental value for me. Plus it just looks supercool and rides really nice - Best car I've ever personally driven. It's not a show car, but I'm willing to invest the time and money to get it driving again.

Last edited by GoGoPower; 12-20-2011 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 12-20-2011, 09:50 AM   #14
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Re: Trying to get an engine unstuck

Now that the heads are off you saw anything that was in there and then some...you wont know which valves were open but you can probably read the rust traces on the cylinder walls. Now you can tap the piston crowns down alternately with a hammer handle or wooden dowel and a mallet to loosen the pistons, ( I said "tap" not drive)! Keep 'em wet with the rust penetrant or diesel fuel and keep working the crank back and forth until free. After you drop the pan and the rod/pistons are removed you can run a cylinder hone in the bores to determine the extent of the cylinder pitting. Don't try to bore them out just a light honing will do! HTH
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Old 12-20-2011, 10:29 AM   #15
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Re: Trying to get an engine unstuck

Dont worry, the PB Blaster is a good investment...no garage should be without it. Stinks like the devil but works about the best there is. I was just thinkin if the heads arent completely off yet and the intake manifold is still on you can blow some smoke in there and see which cyls it comes out of. (probably because I smoke cigars). That oughtta give ya an idea which pistons to concentrate on. Or you can just put the pushrods back in, ( no rocker arms), and see which ones are sitting high. Those will correspond to which valves were sitting open. The intake manifold is not to be neglected in the realm of things here. It'll still need to be cleaned out. Hope this all helps.
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