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Old 01-13-2004, 01:09 AM   #31
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Re: Attention!! F.A.Q.s thread...

I don't give out bs. And I'm not trying to make enemies. I'm not asking for help, I'm trying to offer it. Sometimes that means correcting some misinformation.
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Old 01-13-2004, 01:40 AM   #32
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Re: Re: Re: Attention!! F.A.Q.s thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by KrNxRaCer00
I never said that honda couldn't figure a turbo motor out (don't know where u got that from,) but i agree w/ u that they believe they don't need a turbo motor'd automobile yet.
Not accusing you. Just a bad choice of words. Sorry.

Quote:
Honda has never built an ls/vtec. the b18b1 and b18c1 don't share the same block. the b18c1 and c5 do w/ the b16 head being the biggest difference (obviously internals etc, but being general here,) but i've yet to see an ls/vtec from the factory. (maybe not seeing exactly wut ur trying to say.)
I was being a little figurative. The B18A was the first 1.8L Honda engine. The GSR (B17) was developed a couple years later using the 1.8L non-VTEC as a starting point. I think this was the debut of VTEC in America, but I'm not sure about that. As they developed the new VTEC engine they realized that it wasn't just a simple matter of changing out the head. There were other things that required attention, namely the rod ratio. So as they fit the new head technology onto the block they also adjusted the bottom-end components. In the past couple years we have, in a sense, retraced Honda's footsteps. We're trying to reinvent the wheel. The reason that LS VTEC hasn't come futher than it is now is because more modification would cost more than a GSR and that's basically what you would have when you're finished. It's kind of like if after the invention of cell phones someone came along and said, "Hey, how about a 900mhz chordless phone so you could walk from room to room inside your house?" There's no point, we've already got better technology.

Quote:
You talk about reliability, thats going to be a tradeoff for ANY modified motor, simply as that.

what goals does the ls/vtec meet? its not that expensive (can be done well for under 3k...cheaper than the b18c1), and if u turbo it, then its by far a stronger motor/turbo combination than the ls/turbo. its almost like a middle ground between the c1/b1.
Reliability for my motors is far greater than the expectation of an LS VTEC. I stated in another thread that I plan my engine packages around an 80K mile service life. No frankenstein motor can touch that.

GSR swaps cost $3200-$3500 with tranny. Without the tranny it's about the same as the LS VTEC or maybe a little less. And that $3000 price tag gets you an unmodified LS VTEC which means maybe 15 more whp than a GSR. The service life of a GSR can easily be 150k miles. That would take 3 LS VTECs to get that longevity. All of the sudden you're at $9000 for an extra 15whp and the same engine life.

As for LS VTEC turbo, compare apples to apples. If I had $6000 I could build an LS that could handle 25+ psi that could waste a frankenstein turbo that would only be able to boost 8-12psi without blowing up.

It is middle ground, but at a price comparable to a GSR. And at the end of the day you still have an LS tranny. That's a problem.

Quote:
also, stock u have the lowend torque of the ls, w/ the topend pull of the vtec head.

no, we don't know better than honda...but we do more than they do for 1/4 times.
Since you can't rev as high as a GSR that topend addition doesn't help you out as much.

Agreed. Honda definitely isn't a straight line company. And fwiw, I look at the world through road racing glasses as well.



I didn't bother with smileys, but you should all know that I didn't write all of that in an arguementative tone. It's merely a discussion. No ill will intended.
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Old 01-13-2004, 05:02 AM   #33
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nono, i didn't take it as a bad thing. i like someone w/ an arguement and an actual intelligent rebutle.

as for the b17 being the 1st VTEC motor in america, nope. the 1990 NSX rocked the V6 VTEC motor. hence, it was actually the 1st introduction of VTEC to the american world.

an ls/vtec is a much more aggressive approach to straight line racing, but i think its positives CAN out-weigh the negs. a stock ls vtec can be putting down 170-180 to the wheels, compared to 150-155 for the gsr (obdI gsr that is.)

i think we both can agree it isn't a motor that should be taken lightly, and most of the time, i'd suggest that a newbie stay away from it. it requires a lot more work, yes, and it MUST be kept up, or it will goto shit. but MOST turbo motors will not run to 80k. most will have an expectancy of around 40-50k (if driven hard.) if the ls/vtec was driven daily, it very easily could reach the 80k mark, if kept up and not beaten on constantly (which is true about stock motors as well.)

no, it IS not as reliable as a stock motor. no motor put together by us lowly honda-heads will EVER be as sturdy as the OEM ones. but i think ppl over-emphasize it's weakness. it can be a reliable motor, ppl jus need to realize that it isn't a normal motor from the factory and it won't take the abuse a stock one will.

i've seen ls/vtec swaps w/ an s80 tranny (b18c5,) for under 3k. thats a stronger motor AND stronger tranny for less than the gsr (numbers-wise, not talking about reliability)

the arguement about the ls/turbo being faster than the ls/vtec turbo really doesn't only pertain to the ls/vtec. w/ only 6k to spend, that ls motor would be faster than a b18c1 OR b18c5 turbo'd motor. the motor simply takes more money, but in the end, has greater potential than the ls/turbo ever could. i do agree if turbo is the route and money is an issue, a stock b18b1 motor is the way to go (i'll never argue that.)

the ls/vtec can be build to rev, simply takes time/money to do. its all about the build (just like reliability is.)

side note: i look at it through the same glasses...ITR com'n now, there's no other way to go .
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Old 01-13-2004, 02:35 PM   #34
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Re: Attention!! F.A.Q.s thread...

Here's the only dyno I could find of a "stock" LS VTEC.


This is a great site that I just found with tons of B-series dynos on it.
http://www.importreview.com/d_1.8.html

There are other LS VTECs on there that make more power, but they have upgraded pistons and cams. Keep in mind the same upgrades can be made to a GSR for better power. The dyno posted above is what you would get for $3000 if you built the motor correctly. You could do it cheaper or you could get upgraded cams/pistons for the same price, but then your reliability is going to suffer. I'd give that dyno an engine life of 50K. But pretty much any shortcuts for that setup will quickly drop you under 20K miles.

There will always be a huge debate about whether turbos or NA is more reliable. I see it this way, if you have an NA 12:1 engine you're going to see 10:1 dynamic compression on every single compression stroke that the engine makes. On a turbo motor your max dynamic compression may be around 11.5:1. But you will only have dynamic compression that high 50% of the time on a race day and 10-20% of the time for daily driving. I feel that the turbo motor is actually putting less stress on the components.

Before you say that I contradicted a previous post, for road racing I was referring to the NA reliability *during the race*. Turbos have more little things that can go wrong, but in general will put less wear on combustion chamber parts.

Coming from another performance angle, the LS doesn't have to be merely an LSVTEC or turbo platform. If your power goals are 170whp or less you can cam the engine much cheaper than an LSVTEC swap. A Crower 62403 swap can get you to 155whp pretty easily with just the basic bolt-on support. That's just as good as a basic (and reliable) LSVTEC setup for under half the cost!
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Old 01-14-2004, 11:57 PM   #35
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ok, well...lets delve deeper into that website.

on the same site, it shows a gsr w/ i/h/e and cams putting down 173.

then if u scroll down, there is a lsvtec w/ only i/e and cams putting down 185. this sorta goes against "put the same money into the gsr, and u'll have more power..." it CAN be stronger, but it depends on each motor. as we both know, some motors are simply manufactured better (either ls/vtec or oem.) they are pretty even motors overall, unless u can show me a link on that site (since u brought it up) that shows me the gsr making a lot more power from the same mod's.

i understand not all ls/vtec's are going to be as strong as the one's on this page w/ only those mod's, but then look at the ls/vtec w/ the b18c1 head. its putting down over 200 hp w/ only a free'd up exhaust and cams. there are no gsr motors that come close to these numbers. yes, some of the numbers are closer than these, but...is there one n/a gsr motor stronger than the top ls/vtec motor on that board (usdm)?

even the greddy turbo @ 7.5 psi only puts down 205.5 w/ a down-pipe. that is hardly more than the basically STOCK ls/vtec w/ a b18c1 head.

as for the ls motor. so u buy an ls motor (around 1k...) simple bolt-ons are going to cost u upwards of $2000-2500 (to go from 120 up to 155.) i'm not seeing how it's half the cost here? even to get to the 140 to the wheels mark that the LOWEST ls/vtec is making stock...to gain that 20 hp, ur looking at over $1500 in mod's. how is that half?

i'll allow one more post from u to respond to wut i jus wrote, then we need to change the subject. feel free to list all the things that can go wrong w/ one, and the con's of it. BUT after that, PM me if u'd like to further debate this.

plz...others feel free to add other things (since we sorta took over the thread.)
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Old 01-15-2004, 01:56 AM   #36
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Re: Attention!! F.A.Q.s thread...

I don't really have time at the moment to spend an hour writing out an end-all be-all post on LSVTEC concepts, but I'll make just a few more points.

I would have been happier if that site had more straight VTEC head swaps without the upgrades. That would have given a little better idea about what just the head does. It's also of note that different VTEC heads (B16/B17/B18C1/B18C5) will all yield different compression ratios when mated to an LS block.

I didn't go back and review the dynos on that page, but there are two key things to note about those LS VTEC charts... Adding Pistons is a $1000 option. So throw out any graph with that upgrade. Second, An LS VTEC should not rev past 7000rpm unless it's been sleeved (another $1000 option) so you shouldn't look at power gained after that point...unless you want to submit that the engine will only last 10 or 15K miles. In which case, I'd throw it out anyway since it's not really practical for a street car.

If you do want to compare a $5000 LS VTEC to a GSR you would need to find one with a cam upgrade and a full Hytech exhaust system. That's what I would do with $2000 and a GSR. And the reliability would still stretch into 150K+. The Hytech system alone has been know to pull 30whp out of a near stock B18C. BTW, if you're in the market you should look into this system for your R. It's by far one of the best parts that you could ever bolt up to your car.

As for modding an LS... Assume both cars are prepped for head modification. I mean that they have intake, catback, and piggy backs already in place. Whichever direction you take, you'll need this stuff. From this point a basic LS VTEC conversion is $3000. That $3000 buys you, basically, the graph posted above. Or $1100-$1200 will get you the Crower 404's with springs installed and tuned for roughly 155whp. A moderator from anothe Honda board did this mod a few months ago and got 170whp with the same basic setup.

Let's also not forget that whp doesn't win races. I am confident that your car slightly modded would have no trouble with 85% of the moderately built LS VTECs out there. The Type-R has smooth power delivery with a good curve. These frankenstein motors aren't quite so flowing, and the powerbands can be peaky instead of broad. And even beyond that, poweband shape doesn't even give the whole story. The very nature of the construction of these engines throws off the well-balanced relationship of the various components. That can cause parasitic losses in transient response that don't show up on dyno horsepower ratings.
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Old 01-16-2004, 01:05 PM   #37
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Re: Attention!! F.A.Q.s thread...

I think it would be helpfull if someone would make a list of all comon terms used to help out the super newb's, i know what most of them are but some may not know TB stands for Throttle body and what not. so if a list was compiled and added in the F&Q's i think that would be very helpful, thanks
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Old 01-17-2004, 08:33 PM   #38
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-i/h/e=intake/header/exhaust
-s/c=supercharge
-t/c=turbo
-n/a=naturally aspirated (non-turbo/supercharged/nitrous motor, think all motor)
-FI=forced induction (turbo/super/nitrous)
-teg=integra

hrmmm...those are the basics. feel free to add to them.
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Old 01-17-2004, 09:13 PM   #39
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ITR = integra type R
CTR = civic type R

SRI = short ram intake
CAI = cold air intake
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Old 01-20-2004, 05:01 PM   #40
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Re: Attention!! F.A.Q.s thread...

TLC-tender loving care
Rex-CRX
CRV-tec -B20/v-tec head frank motor
RHD-right hand drive
JDM- Japenese Domestic Marker(Just Damn Magnificent)
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Old 01-25-2004, 11:24 PM   #41
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Converting a B18B auto to Manual

I am new to this forum. I am trying to figure out exactly what I need to change my Tranny into a manual. hence where can I get all the interior parts and how hard it is to install the linkage. I have some friends that will help me out but mostly I want to tackle this myself. I want to just put a regular old LS tranny in. I am not looking to spend alot but want to make sure this gets done. I plan on upgrading the motor but for now want a Manual shifter. I would also like to know if there are Air shifting kits available for Integra's. Thanks alot. let me know something ASAP as I want to get this out of the way for the summer.
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Old 02-11-2004, 11:45 AM   #42
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Re: Attention!! F.A.Q.s thread...

what about OT what the hell does that mean ??
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Old 02-11-2004, 01:07 PM   #43
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Re: Re: Attention!! F.A.Q.s thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HondaIntegraXSI
TLC-tender loving care
Rex-CRX
CRV-tec -B20/v-tec head frank motor
RHD-right hand drive
JDM- Japenese Domestic Marker(Just Damn Magnificent)
be careful with using Rex, its a common term for the WRX.
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Old 02-11-2004, 03:12 PM   #44
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Re: Attention!! F.A.Q.s thread...

OT means Off Topic.
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Old 02-11-2004, 03:13 PM   #45
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Re: Converting a B18B auto to Manual

I don't see an OT in my post...I just want to change my Integra from an Auto to Manual shift and possibly add an air shifting kit if they are available. if you could give me some info on a link to go to or how to go about this then let me know. Thanks!
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