Japan vs American muscle

[TatII]

yeah as sad as it is, the fastest car on the inner loop on the japanese highway is some automatic vette. i almost passed out when i saw it considering that they have many 200+ mph tuner cars in japan. including a diablo

[crankwalk 2g]

Originally posted by Donham



not so fast (hehe), I'll admit a charger is a heavy musclecar.... but comparing a 4000 lbs charger with 600 ho to a 3200 lb Misubish with 600 is not the same and the results might suprise you.., the dinky 4-6 poper with 600 hp has 600 hp at 9000 rpms and EL-ZILCHO low end torque, the charger might have a 500 cid 600 hp engine with a FLAT turque curve...... 600 hp at 5500 rpm,s and but 700 ft lbs or torque at 3500 where as the 600 hp mitsubish might have 120 ft lbs at 3500 rpms..

its not me who is undereastamating the small engine turbo thing, its those of you who have them who do not understand just because an engine is naturally aspired does not mean it is slow..

scott

I think you are underestimating turbos. A turbo increases torque almost as much as horsepower, that 600 hp Mitsubishi would have 500+ lb of torque, that + 800 less lbs + awd= raped Charger

[SR20DETpower]

ya I was checking out Supercoupes SC 3.8L videos.... a whole buch came up of it racing a C5, a SS camaro, and a Rx7. As I watched em I noticed some japanese words were being said.... these were outside shots couldn't see people... I guess they have some tuned USDM cars there as well.... however that RX7 did beat it a little bit, it smoked the Chevy's.
However as far as sports cars are concerned for the population, I think Skylines/S-chassis/Evo are more prevailent over there then USDM such as Mustang/Camaro/Corvette by far.

[Ace$nyper]

Wow look at this a thread with japanvs Amercian and no dumb flaming. *knock on wood* now i probbly jinxed it sorry. I love them both but i've seen a buddy trying to keep up with an talon in his Cobra in the turns lost control smashed into a tree cut his car clean in half (he was fine) if he had AWD like the TSI did he would still have it and won the racing near me is there are turns so most of the time the imports win sometimes there just stomped.

[Donham]

I'm not even mentioning road-racing, since you seem pretty realistic about that.




On freeway race would you rather race with:

A) an 800+HP Toyota Supra or
b) a 1,000+HP 69 Camaro?

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ANSWER: is, that depends on how both are built, if you use new technoligy on a big engine muscle car, like a overdrive automatic, or a T56 6 speed, then who can say.
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Have you ever seen a 1stGen Eclipse/Talon cut a 1.8 or less 60-ft on bona-fide Pep-Boys specials? Try that with a high-HP same year (90'-94')Camaro.

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ANSWER:
Actually, yes I've seen some quick Eagle Talons, mostly the early ones with the larger turbos that are turned down from the factory.... Been the the Indy drags seen one street driven run like 12's, barely, like 12.90's, pretty good...
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AND Again, talking about everyday driving.

Not too many people in this board can afford to support a weekend-only car. I repeat: "street-legal does not equal daily-driven". I was talking about high-HP and liveability


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ANSWER:
If they can afford to dump $20,000 into a Supra to make it run 11's, just maybe they can afford it as a weekend drive,r esp when with 22 lbs of boost the ctlender pressure is enough to require 112 race fuel.
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Now, let's say you have to go to the bathroom VERY badly...you need teepee. You're out. It's raining. You only have a choice between:

A) a 750+HP 440 Hemi-Charger or
B) a 1,200+HP Toyota Supra

Let logic, not bias, be your guide in this...
(not even mentioning the AWD Skyline, since it won't be fair in a rainy-day comparo)


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ANSWER:
There is no such thing as a 1,200 hp Street Drive daily driver Toyota,
I have seen in magazine a street driven Plymouth Valare with a 1,440 hemi, 3650 lbs ran 8's with small real rubber and serious traction problems, this was back in the late 80's.. technoligy for big engine is much better now as it is for all engines.

Jez dude talk about Bias, you compare a full blown Cam Am Toyota Race car (1,200 hp) to a street car with a tired (750 hp) Hemi in it, and you pick the most heavy musclecar Chrysler corp has ever made...

Believe it or now there are alot of forced induction hemis out there, they seem to like it, many many 1500 hp street driven hemi's on the road..
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I would slit my throat if that is what I'd have to do everyday just to be able to drive my car. My old boss' van can corner better than that...oh BTW, the van was a Honda Odyssey.

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ANSWER:
Oh come on, now lets not get testy, everyone here is behaving like adults, and friendly for a hot debate, I can tense a little frustration... I do not practice can am style driving on the street, now I'm no mr law or nice guy, but fast cornering in the city is dangerous, compared to battling out the 1/4 mile out in the nowhere county.
Do as you will, but be careful though.
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Actually, no. Better gearing is more necessary for the higher gears. Don't forget, gearing multiplies torque.


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ANSWER
I understand gearing and rear weel torque at the weels... there is a breaking point to how much low gear you need on the street to as how much you start to lose traction..
You could have a 600 hp at 900 rpms supra, with 550 lbs or torque at 5000 rpms
and it still might only have 150 ft lbs at 2000 rpms... while a 68 Satlite with a 500 big block might have the same HP Same torque, but have 500 ft lbs at 2000 rpms...

You can dump the clutch on the supra at 9 grand and the Rpm's are still gonna falll down...until you get moving and while the motor up some to it's power..
By the time the high rpm HP supra gets it's best power, my 7 yr son old will already be in high school.....
Numbers on paper look neat, but you have to have the whole package...

lets talk Street cars that run on pump gas, you can forget the 600 supra, cause 20 lbs of boost will yeild with a 8.0:1 compression motor like 16.0:1 dynamic compression, and pump (93-94) gas runs at between 8.2:1 to 9.0:1 DYNAMIC compression depending on cumbustion chamber effecientcy etc

I mean your talking daiily drivers, so lets talk 93-94 octane pump gas...
Yes, There are 600-700 hp big block that run on pump gas...
Hot Rod a while back had a 600 cid Big block Chevy with 1050 hp runs on 93 Octane. No Nitrus too.. I love those mopars, but those big block Chevy Rats kick some serious butt..

Also those V8's will run more NOS than those dinky 6 popers with turbos...
There is only so much you can do with a small piston and stroke...
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If AWD grips that much on snow...how do you think it'll do on asphalt?

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ANSWER

Well then, 4 Weel drives truck kick butt in the snow also, so I guess they would mop up all of us...
like I said, AWD is good for snow, but for a 11 second streetcar it does no good..
Those front axles are doing noting, because of the car accelerates, the weight of a car moves to the rear (didn't you know this part?), and most the weight on a quick car is on the rear weels, what good is a front axle if it's hanging in the air or BARELY touching the ground.... it's taking up weight and more friction for the motor..
might as well just have a FWD, matter of fact I think most the fasest 1/4 mile mitsubishi Diamond Star cars are FWD... have huge rubber up front..
AWD would be better for a engine with low end torque.... overdriven turbocharged lawnmowers have not mch low end...

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Also one thing, I think most the people (jap car owners too) here are pretty keen on overall mechanics, you guys seems to be grown up, not too much flamming going on....a little heated bias at times, but you have a general understanding, it's just alot of you don't have any knowlege of older cars, esp with todays technoligy on them...

You seem to kind of be a little ticked off at some Domestic car owners cause they give you no respect, or don't even give you a glance...
I can say personally I do know there are some very fast import cars...
I might blow off some steam myself touting about the "boosted lawnmower engines", but I know better than to say my domestic has nothing to worry about from those rice cars...

At the same token I read a bunch of posts of rice car owners popping off about killing all those V8's , then your asking for a response..
This is a open forum, serving not only import readers, you post and you might get a response (hopefully no profanity and flames) from someone.

Take care

scott

[Self]

A lot of what he said above is true...Except for the part about there being no 1000hp+ Supra's on the street. That's not technically true. Many of those cars are able to turn the boost down and run on the street every day if need be. Now granted, once they do so they're not necessarily 1000hp+ anymore, but still. I feel as if that's one of the pro's of having a turbo vehicle. Power adjustability

And I've also seen a 93+ Camaro cut a sub 2.0 60' on cheap street tires. Not trying to diss on AWD cars, because they're GREAT. On the street and in the snow/rain as well. But like he said, once again, when you get to a certain point hp-wise, weight transfer is such that the front wheels are pretty much useless anyways. And then again, the high-speed power robbing of an AWD system is detrimental. But then again that's not really that big of a deal in a daily driven vehicle. Just saying that both cars have their strengths. If anyone is wondering, I personally don't really have a preference one way or another. I just happen to have a Camaro at the moment(although that may be changing in the near future ) Looking to pick up something cheap next, so an Eclipse or something is very possible.

[Ace$nyper]

wow sub 2.0 on street tires i think that also says alot about the driver and in real life the driver is the most important thing in the car.

[Self]

Originally posted by Ace$nyper
wow sub 2.0 on street tires i think that also says alot about the driver and in real life the driver is the most important thing in the car.

Oh yea, most certainly. But a sub 2 on streets isn't that difficult to do with stock or near stock hp in a Z28. Anything above say 350hp though, and you start to have real big problems hooking up on streets.

[SR20DETpower]

If they can afford to dump $20,000 into a Supra to make it run 11's, just maybe they can afford it as a weekend drive,r esp when with 22 lbs of boost the ctlender pressure is enough to require 112 race fuel.

im sorry but how does it take 20,000 bucks to make a Supra do 11's.


with 20k bucks I could make a 240sx that is already non turbo'd... buy all the parts and tune it and probably do 11's or less........

I only imagine its a hell of a lot easier to do it on a Supra.....

turbochargers aren't THAT expensive...... I will admit some people have some badass cars they had no budget on but you can obtain those speeds on a budget with a turbo car if you plan right.....

[NSX-R-SSJ20K]

the Japanese look down on USDM cars you can just tell that by watching Best Motoring and listening to Keiichi talking about the 350Z is a poser designed for the american market to go up against corvettes altho it might be Gan-san not Keiichi who said that. Keiichi keeps calling him old man its hilarious........... no doubt :o

[SR20DETpower]

no doubt the USDM market played a SUBSTANTIAL role in how the 350z was designed. It is still a good car though, I like the interrior and exterior styling, Lemans Sunset kicks ass. Although they say its not twin turbo or anything and complain about the speed, you have to realize it is the Fastest Z that has been made so far.......And I hear it handles better then the Z32 as well....

Its still a decent sports car, I've seen BMI run it against a R34 stock and it was right behind it most of the track, didn't do to bad. modded GTR vs modded Z33 who knows though lol Id bet on the skyline.

[crankwalk 2g]

Originally posted by Donham



If AWD grips that much on snow...how do you think it'll do on asphalt?

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ANSWER

Well then, 4 Weel drives truck kick butt in the snow also, so I guess they would mop up all of us...
like I said, AWD is good for snow, but for a 11 second streetcar it does no good..
Those front axles are doing noting, because of the car accelerates, the weight of a car moves to the rear (didn't you know this part?), and most the weight on a quick car is on the rear weels, what good is a front axle if it's hanging in the air or BARELY touching the ground.... it's taking up weight and more friction for the motor..
might as well just have a FWD, matter of fact I think most the fasest 1/4 mile mitsubishi Diamond Star cars are FWD... have huge rubber up front..
AWD would be better for a engine with low end torque.... overdriven turbocharged lawnmowers have not mch low end...

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Your thinking of AWD wrong, awd does not send 100% of power to the rear wheels like a rwd does, it sends a certian amount to both front and rear axels. Both axels get decent power and all four tires grip, none come off the ground enough to lose traction.

[NSX-R-SSJ20K]

Originally posted by SR20DETpower
no doubt the USDM market played a SUBSTANTIAL role in how the 350z was designed. It is still a good car though, I like the interrior and exterior styling, Lemans Sunset kicks ass. Although they say its not twin turbo or anything and complain about the speed, you have to realize it is the Fastest Z that has been made so far.......And I hear it handles better then the Z32 as well....

Its still a decent sports car, I've seen BMI run it against a R34 stock and it was right behind it most of the track, didn't do to bad. modded GTR vs modded Z33 who knows though lol Id bet on the skyline.

did you watch all of that video
i have the DVD and the R34 is just pacing it cuz its a camera car. The guy decides at the end he'll demostrate how fast a R34 is compared to the Z he hounds the Z then destroys it overtaking in a corner and leaving it for dead on the straight away. GAN-san was pissed off at the GTR cuz it was in his way he was in a S2000 and would've taken the Z in a corner if the GTR wasn't there.

That's also the other point they link this to the GTR and say its not a race car like the GTR so its more american etc etc. The GTR wasted the Z is was immense.

[NSX-R-SSJ20K]

Originally posted by crankwalk 2g


Your thinking of AWD wrong, awd does not send 100% of power to the rear wheels like a rwd does, it sends a certian amount to both front and rear axels. Both axels get decent power and all four tires grip, none come off the ground enough to lose traction.

AWD's are really easy to screw up on launching from a dead stop thats the only problem. The R34 GTR has a good way of overcoming it but it is not true AWD.

[SR20DETpower]

yeah I've never seen a AWD GTR pick up its front wheels... take a look at some videos of the fastest ones.... the front end picks up a lil bit but the front tires never spin out of control.... the rears might lay out some smoke, but it still accelerates hard. Nothing beats seeing a high HP skyline take off the line hard lol.